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Another possible explanation is that business just don't see much difference between junior work performance and senior work performance. I have 15 years of ex

Another possible explanation is that business just don't see much difference between junior work performance and senior work performance. I have 15 years of experience (both huge companies and own startups), but I keep wondering what if it's really the case: that there's simply no difference for company success? When I hire people myself, I only see value up until mid-seniority. From there what matters is just discipline, readiness to help peers, responsibility and hours candidate can really-work.

citizens 9y ago
Could you expand on "hours candidate can really-work"?
- deepsun 9y ago
  Sure. By "really-work" I mean thinking of work and doing it, not just being at work. I, personally, rarely can do really-work more than 4 hours a day -- only if task is very interesting and challenging. Then I can do it for 12 hours a day straight, but I stop myself if I work more than 6 hours, because I know I would burn out, happened a few times. 4 hours a day of really-work sounds not a lot, but my performance is pretty good comparing to my teammates. Never heard managers complain on my performance. The other 4 hours I spend on meetings/lunch/hacker news/socializing etc. So I would look for a candidate who can do it for at least 4 hours a day. I heard rumors of people who can really-work for 8 hours a day (like John Carmack). Those people are called "100x engineers", I really want to work with some of them one day.
  - 0xfeba 9y ago
    Well, I feel better for only doing ~4 hours of real work then. I take breaks often for socializing/HN/car forums. Plus meetings and interruptions. But I can produce just as much as some other developers, so I really see no incentive to do more work unless it's clear I will get more recognition for it, rather than just more work to do.
  - codycraven 9y ago
    I can easily work 8 hours per day straight, however throw two or three interruptions into my day (meetings or the like) and I'm lucky if I can get back in a solid flow. Put me in three hours of meetings and I'm completely toast from that point on.
  - fpisfun 9y ago
    I can definitely really work for 8 hours a day if it's on my own project and I'm in the flow but no way I can ever get in they mindset to do it for an employer, especially that I have a less than spectacular salary, I'm guessing many people are the same way.
- pc86 9y ago
  Meaning not sitting on HN commenting on salaries :)
humanrebar 9y ago
> that there's simply no difference for company success I've found that organizational structure and politics become a limiting factor past a certain level of skill and experience. That is, for one engineer to be obviously worth the price of three or four others, they'll need more responsibility and resources somehow. In finance, the responsibility is easy to delegate: it's the size (actual money) of decisions they'll be making. In generic software, how do you do the same thing? All the code on X servers? Primary responsibility and merge privileges on Y repos? There are interesting experiments and answers in this space, but most shops aren't oriented to think that way.
- jschwartzi 9y ago
  You give them important projects to lead, and give them bigger budgets to manage those projects.
  - humanrebar 9y ago
    At some point, that's the job description of a manager, not an engineer.
    - tetha 9y ago
      Mh. Answering from my position. I didn't get responsibility for more systems, or bigger projects, or things like that. They made me responsible for the technical side of production. All of it, zero wiggle room. Overall, I would not consider myself a manager. I don't have disciplinary rights, even in my team. I guess if I want someone gone, they will leave the company, but I'm no disciplinary superior. And in my space, technical considerations still dominate. My decisions just cost more or less, affect availability, maintainability, support of our software, alow teams to go faster. I code less chef and terraform, yeah. I'd like to do so more. But fuck me, it's better for my team to tell people to do as my team wants. It's better for me to keep my head above single resources and servers, so we keep a tactical view.
      - jschwartzi 9y ago
mercutio2 9y ago
There is a huge difference between high performing senior engineers, and high performing junior engineers. But lots and lots of senior engineers aren’t high performing. They’re still moderately more valuable than junior engineers, but not immensely so. People calling themselves “senior engineer” are usually referring to years of experience, not to whether their management chain consisently sees them as high performing.
- kmonsen 9y ago
  Also that senior engineer can be high performing in one situation and not in another. And it is not always about the job. Some trouble at home and can't sleep well? Not going to be a top performer for long. What I mean is that it is hard to give a number to a person. Sometimes they shine, sometimes they don't.

citizens 9y ago

Could you expand on "hours candidate can really-work"?

deepsun 9y ago
Sure. By "really-work" I mean thinking of work and doing it, not just being at work. I, personally, rarely can do really-work more than 4 hours a day -- only if task is very interesting and challenging. Then I can do it for 12 hours a day straight, but I stop myself if I work more than 6 hours, because I know I would burn out, happened a few times. 4 hours a day of really-work sounds not a lot, but my performance is pretty good comparing to my teammates. Never heard managers complain on my performance. The other 4 hours I spend on meetings/lunch/hacker news/socializing etc. So I would look for a candidate who can do it for at least 4 hours a day. I heard rumors of people who can really-work for 8 hours a day (like John Carmack). Those people are called "100x engineers", I really want to work with some of them one day.
- 0xfeba 9y ago
  Well, I feel better for only doing ~4 hours of real work then. I take breaks often for socializing/HN/car forums. Plus meetings and interruptions. But I can produce just as much as some other developers, so I really see no incentive to do more work unless it's clear I will get more recognition for it, rather than just more work to do.
- codycraven 9y ago
  I can easily work 8 hours per day straight, however throw two or three interruptions into my day (meetings or the like) and I'm lucky if I can get back in a solid flow. Put me in three hours of meetings and I'm completely toast from that point on.
- fpisfun 9y ago
  I can definitely really work for 8 hours a day if it's on my own project and I'm in the flow but no way I can ever get in they mindset to do it for an employer, especially that I have a less than spectacular salary, I'm guessing many people are the same way.
pc86 9y ago
Meaning not sitting on HN commenting on salaries :)

humanrebar 9y ago

> that there's simply no difference for company success I've found that organizational structure and politics become a limiting factor past a certain level of skill and experience. That is, for one engineer to be obviously worth the price of three or four others, they'll need more responsibility and resources somehow. In finance, the responsibility is easy to delegate: it's the size (actual money) of decisions they'll be making. In generic software, how do you do the same thing? All the code on X servers? Primary responsibility and merge privileges on Y repos? There are interesting experiments and answers in this space, but most shops aren't oriented to think that way.

jschwartzi 9y ago
You give them important projects to lead, and give them bigger budgets to manage those projects.
- humanrebar 9y ago
  At some point, that's the job description of a manager, not an engineer.
  - tetha 9y ago
    Mh. Answering from my position. I didn't get responsibility for more systems, or bigger projects, or things like that. They made me responsible for the technical side of production. All of it, zero wiggle room. Overall, I would not consider myself a manager. I don't have disciplinary rights, even in my team. I guess if I want someone gone, they will leave the company, but I'm no disciplinary superior. And in my space, technical considerations still dominate. My decisions just cost more or less, affect availability, maintainability, support of our software, alow teams to go faster. I code less chef and terraform, yeah. I'd like to do so more. But fuck me, it's better for my team to tell people to do as my team wants. It's better for me to keep my head above single resources and servers, so we keep a tactical view.
    - jschwartzi 9y ago

mercutio2 9y ago

There is a huge difference between high performing senior engineers, and high performing junior engineers. But lots and lots of senior engineers aren’t high performing. They’re still moderately more valuable than junior engineers, but not immensely so. People calling themselves “senior engineer” are usually referring to years of experience, not to whether their management chain consisently sees them as high performing.

kmonsen 9y ago
Also that senior engineer can be high performing in one situation and not in another. And it is not always about the job. Some trouble at home and can't sleep well? Not going to be a top performer for long. What I mean is that it is hard to give a number to a person. Sometimes they shine, sometimes they don't.