4 ms·

"Hell" I mentioned relates to the need to second guess everybody else's intentions in every single encounter; your brain capacity would be spent on protecting y

by bitL 9y ago

"Hell" I mentioned relates to the need to second guess everybody else's intentions in every single encounter; your brain capacity would be spent on protecting yourself and playing required "politics de jour" instead of working. That's a recipe for bankruptcy. Societies/companies lacking trust don't survive (alright, I know there is Oracle...).

rayiner 9y ago
None of these harassment allegations involve men who simply failed to play the "politics de jour." That is a complete straw man. This is not about trust or intentions, but rather about boundaries. There is the sphere of work, and there is the sphere of socializing/romance, and as long as you respect that boundary there is no problem. Not trying to date people puts zero demands on your brain capacity (and, in fact, greatly frees your brain capacity, as I learned after getting married).
- bitL 9y ago
  Look at it from my point of view - I am an attractive male, tall, handsome face , muscular, do photography and compose music, have that creative spark, now run my own company, yet my religious upbringing tells me I can't fornicate freely like the zeitgeist suggests, and can't tell you how many times even married women were hitting on me, willing to dump their husbands immediately - "it's just marriage". Whenever I turn any of them down, I need to have my back extremely well covered as they don't take rejection lightly. I am wondering when in the future some of them accuses me of "abusing" her because she couldn't have me (Potiphar's wife-style). Heck, I even had a female boss once that was luring me to her hotel room. This is what I call "politics de jour", being always aware of actors and nasty games they play to get into power regardless of justice and react on it real-time.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - rayiner 9y ago
    The predicament you describe for yourself is the exact same thing women face all the time. When a coworker makes an advance on a woman, she has to cover her back, because the coworker may not take the rejection lightly. They may badmouth her behind her back, exclude her socially, and generally refuse to treat her like he treats his other colleagues. That’s exactly why romance and sexual have no place in the office, on either side.
    - pen2l 9y ago
      > That’s exactly why romance and sexual have no place in the office, on either side. But it so happens that I am at work pretty much all day including a lot of weekends. My work is my life. If you're going to tell me that I am simply not allowed to get involved with a person at a place where my life is, it means that I will likely be alone for a very long while. Especially since I am not a bar person (I'm petite, shy when meeting new people, and can't speak loudly, bars/clubs are a no-go and I don't have much of a social network other than from work). I have a suspicion that you work in a field and in an area where you are afforded the luxury of time and resources to be able to operate within the constraints you now stipulate. Many do not, and they cannot find their human need for romance met if you suddenly say that romance-at-work is off-limits.
      - bitL 9y ago
        Frankly, here I agree with the post you replied to - romantic relationships at work are a huge, unpredictable liability. It's better to completely separate work life from romantic life if you can afford it, otherwise you might get labeled "creepy" and instantly booted out of company with limited future employment prospects or worse. Only the adaptable survive; you might not like what's coming but disregarding the new rules however irrational the may be might cost you a lot.
      - rayiner 9y ago
        > I have a suspicion that you work in a field and in an area where you are afforded the luxury of time and resources to be able to operate within the constraints you now stipulate. I'm a lawyer so I'm pretty much always working. > Many do not, and they cannot find their human need for romance met if you suddenly say that romance-at-work is off-limits. This is a selfish viewpoint. There's lots of appropriate places to find romance. Thanks to Tindr and online dating, we can even do it in a context where people can signal when they're seeking romantic advances (such that making such an advance won't be an imposition on a person just trying to go about her day). But the office is not one of those places. The office is where women who studied hard in school toil to put a roof over their heads, food in their kids' mouths, secure health insurance so they don't die if they get cancer. It's a serious endeavor, every bit as serious for them as it is for you. And they deserve to be able to engage in it without having to put up with the politics and anxiety that goes along with romantic advances in the workplace.

by bitL 9y ago

rayiner 9y ago

None of these harassment allegations involve men who simply failed to play the "politics de jour." That is a complete straw man. This is not about trust or intentions, but rather about boundaries. There is the sphere of work, and there is the sphere of socializing/romance, and as long as you respect that boundary there is no problem. Not trying to date people puts zero demands on your brain capacity (and, in fact, greatly frees your brain capacity, as I learned after getting married).

bitL 9y ago
Look at it from my point of view - I am an attractive male, tall, handsome face , muscular, do photography and compose music, have that creative spark, now run my own company, yet my religious upbringing tells me I can't fornicate freely like the zeitgeist suggests, and can't tell you how many times even married women were hitting on me, willing to dump their husbands immediately - "it's just marriage". Whenever I turn any of them down, I need to have my back extremely well covered as they don't take rejection lightly. I am wondering when in the future some of them accuses me of "abusing" her because she couldn't have me (Potiphar's wife-style). Heck, I even had a female boss once that was luring me to her hotel room. This is what I call "politics de jour", being always aware of actors and nasty games they play to get into power regardless of justice and react on it real-time.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- rayiner 9y ago
  The predicament you describe for yourself is the exact same thing women face all the time. When a coworker makes an advance on a woman, she has to cover her back, because the coworker may not take the rejection lightly. They may badmouth her behind her back, exclude her socially, and generally refuse to treat her like he treats his other colleagues. That’s exactly why romance and sexual have no place in the office, on either side.
  - pen2l 9y ago
    > That’s exactly why romance and sexual have no place in the office, on either side. But it so happens that I am at work pretty much all day including a lot of weekends. My work is my life. If you're going to tell me that I am simply not allowed to get involved with a person at a place where my life is, it means that I will likely be alone for a very long while. Especially since I am not a bar person (I'm petite, shy when meeting new people, and can't speak loudly, bars/clubs are a no-go and I don't have much of a social network other than from work). I have a suspicion that you work in a field and in an area where you are afforded the luxury of time and resources to be able to operate within the constraints you now stipulate. Many do not, and they cannot find their human need for romance met if you suddenly say that romance-at-work is off-limits.
    - bitL 9y ago
      Frankly, here I agree with the post you replied to - romantic relationships at work are a huge, unpredictable liability. It's better to completely separate work life from romantic life if you can afford it, otherwise you might get labeled "creepy" and instantly booted out of company with limited future employment prospects or worse. Only the adaptable survive; you might not like what's coming but disregarding the new rules however irrational the may be might cost you a lot.
    - rayiner 9y ago
      > I have a suspicion that you work in a field and in an area where you are afforded the luxury of time and resources to be able to operate within the constraints you now stipulate. I'm a lawyer so I'm pretty much always working. > Many do not, and they cannot find their human need for romance met if you suddenly say that romance-at-work is off-limits. This is a selfish viewpoint. There's lots of appropriate places to find romance. Thanks to Tindr and online dating, we can even do it in a context where people can signal when they're seeking romantic advances (such that making such an advance won't be an imposition on a person just trying to go about her day). But the office is not one of those places. The office is where women who studied hard in school toil to put a roof over their heads, food in their kids' mouths, secure health insurance so they don't die if they get cancer. It's a serious endeavor, every bit as serious for them as it is for you. And they deserve to be able to engage in it without having to put up with the politics and anxiety that goes along with romantic advances in the workplace.