4 ms·

I've edited my post to better illustrate my opinion. I don't have any opinion on whether or not PhD students are employees or not, however, what I do want is c

by tabeth 9y ago

I've edited my post to better illustrate my opinion. I don't have any opinion on whether or not PhD students are employees or not, however, what I do want is consistency. So if PhD students are indeed students, yet receive a massive tax break in the form of "free tuition" (contrast this to imaginary undergraduate working for a college, who receives income from the college from a job and has to pay post-tax income for tuition) then undergraduates should have the same benefit (that is, tuition reduction from pre-tax income, if they work for the school that they go to). That's it.

mattkrause 9y ago
Your first point is false. Many--but not all--of the grad classes are sort of fictious. I took several semesters of "Dissertation Research in Progress", which had no designated instructor, no meeting room, and in fact, never met. I'm sort of open to the idea that if you get a benefit, you pay for that benefit, but those classes are more of a book-keeping exercise than an actual boon.
- tabeth 9y ago
  Similarly empty classes can be found in plenty of undergraduate programs, especially those taken primarily by atheletes at D1 schools [1]. Or even by students taking seminars that they create, or doing an undergraduate thesis, or... [1] https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/acc/2012/12/20/north-carolina-basketball-football-julius-peppers/1782113/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/acc/2012/12/20/n...
  - mattkrause 9y ago
    The scale is not even remotely close. My undergrad thesis "course" was a single credit for a single semester. I took 4-5 other courses at the same time, all of which were "real". In contrast, "Dissertation Research" was essentially a placeholder for the entire semester. As it happens, my brother was a D1 athlete. None of his courses were fictitious like this either.
    - tabeth 9y ago
      I don't disagree with you. However my point, just like how your undergraduate experience varies with others, is that the majority of graduate programs are not funded, therefore said tax break is irrelevant. Even when you count PhD programs, there's a substantial discpreancy between the physical and non physical sciences [1]. And I never claimed all classes D1 atheletes take are fictious, however, they can be found, just like how the parent said they found fictious graduate courses as well. Unless you have evidence to show that these "placeholder" classes are numerous both in quantity and breadth, mentioning it is basically just irrelevant anecdata (you even suggest this yourself in the grandparent post) [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/01/phd-programs-have-a-dirty-secret-student-debt/283126 https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/01/phd-pro...
      - mattkrause 9y ago
        I don't really know how to "prove" this to you, but you can do the math. Virtually all PhD programs require students to take a small number of courses (on the order of 10), front-loaded towards the beginning of grad school. They also require students to be registered for something the whole time. Thus, the "dark matter" of these classes. Actually, here are the actual directions from Yale: https://registrar.yale.edu/sites/default/files/files/GSAS_Registration_Instructions_Fall2016.pdf https://registrar.yale.edu/sites/default/files/files/GSAS_Re... Here's an analogous thing from Stanford. https://registrar.stanford.edu/students/graduate-degree-progress/terminal-graduate-registration-tgr-status https://registrar.stanford.edu/students/graduate-degree-prog... Here's something from Georgetown (see section 4, about midway down): https://grad.georgetown.edu/academics/policies/graduate-student-bulletin-2014-15/sec-II https://grad.georgetown.edu/academics/policies/graduate-stud... How many more do you need to be convinced?
        tabeth 9y ago
        Hmm, I think there may be a misunderstanding. 1. I don't disagree with you. 2. I'm not trying to take away funding from PhD students, nor am I trying to make them pay more. I simply advocate for undergraduate students to have a similar advantage like graduate students, e.g. they should be able to take pre-tax income given to them by the college (if they have a job) from their tuition, if they choose. 3. Top programs, like you've listed are funded, which weren't really the examples I were using (better to use small schools, which aren't funded at all).
beisner 9y ago
Ph.D. students, in the sciences and engineering at least, spend the majority of their time doing research that benefits the university. Much like professors, they have teaching obligations, make research contributions, and generally work to advance their field. While they are labeled students, the day-to-day life of a Ph.D. student looks more like an employee than a customer. This is why there’s been a push to unionize, and why even charging tuition in the first place is suspect.
- tabeth 9y ago
  Indeed. If it looks like an employee they should be paid like an employee.
ivcha 9y ago
I have to say that I stopped reading after the first point, which does not make any sense to me at all. Phd is so much different from undergrad, in terms of responsibilities and overall role at the university, aside from comparing doing research and courses.
- tabeth 9y ago
  I disagree that a PhD is "so much different from undergrad". In both cases a PhD and an undergraduate is paying for access to a professor. Do you disagree?
  - jjoonathan 9y ago
    Yes. The professor / grad student relationship is essentially manager / employee, in that the professor acquires resources (grants), sets direction, manages, and politicks for the group while the grad students create the actual deliverables (perform experiments, write papers, help with grants and rec letters, train new members of the lab, etc). Professor / undergrad is a very different relationship since the undergrad is not creating deliverables that will help further the professor / research group's goals.
    - tabeth 9y ago
      If this is what you believe, then I've already covered it in my original post -- PhD students should be treated as employees. PhD "students" can be either employees or students, not both. Currently they're "both". --- Also, I'm not sure your post really refutes the notion that a PhD student is paying for access to a professor. A PhD student could receive a degree without access to the institution, so in both cases, undergrad or grad, the institution itself is what's being paid for.
      - jjoonathan 9y ago
        We agree that (PhD students like employees) => (PhD students should be paid like employees), but you also asserted ~(PhD students like employees) which I disagree with.

by tabeth 9y ago

mattkrause 9y ago

Your first point is false. Many--but not all--of the grad classes are sort of fictious. I took several semesters of "Dissertation Research in Progress", which had no designated instructor, no meeting room, and in fact, never met. I'm sort of open to the idea that if you get a benefit, you pay for that benefit, but those classes are more of a book-keeping exercise than an actual boon.

tabeth 9y ago
Similarly empty classes can be found in plenty of undergraduate programs, especially those taken primarily by atheletes at D1 schools [1]. Or even by students taking seminars that they create, or doing an undergraduate thesis, or... [1] https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/acc/2012/12/20/north-carolina-basketball-football-julius-peppers/1782113/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/acc/2012/12/20/n...
- mattkrause 9y ago
  The scale is not even remotely close. My undergrad thesis "course" was a single credit for a single semester. I took 4-5 other courses at the same time, all of which were "real". In contrast, "Dissertation Research" was essentially a placeholder for the entire semester. As it happens, my brother was a D1 athlete. None of his courses were fictitious like this either.
  - tabeth 9y ago
    I don't disagree with you. However my point, just like how your undergraduate experience varies with others, is that the majority of graduate programs are not funded, therefore said tax break is irrelevant. Even when you count PhD programs, there's a substantial discpreancy between the physical and non physical sciences [1]. And I never claimed all classes D1 atheletes take are fictious, however, they can be found, just like how the parent said they found fictious graduate courses as well. Unless you have evidence to show that these "placeholder" classes are numerous both in quantity and breadth, mentioning it is basically just irrelevant anecdata (you even suggest this yourself in the grandparent post) [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/01/phd-programs-have-a-dirty-secret-student-debt/283126 https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/01/phd-pro...
    - mattkrause 9y ago
      I don't really know how to "prove" this to you, but you can do the math. Virtually all PhD programs require students to take a small number of courses (on the order of 10), front-loaded towards the beginning of grad school. They also require students to be registered for something the whole time. Thus, the "dark matter" of these classes. Actually, here are the actual directions from Yale: https://registrar.yale.edu/sites/default/files/files/GSAS_Registration_Instructions_Fall2016.pdf https://registrar.yale.edu/sites/default/files/files/GSAS_Re... Here's an analogous thing from Stanford. https://registrar.stanford.edu/students/graduate-degree-progress/terminal-graduate-registration-tgr-status https://registrar.stanford.edu/students/graduate-degree-prog... Here's something from Georgetown (see section 4, about midway down): https://grad.georgetown.edu/academics/policies/graduate-student-bulletin-2014-15/sec-II https://grad.georgetown.edu/academics/policies/graduate-stud... How many more do you need to be convinced?
      - tabeth 9y ago
        Hmm, I think there may be a misunderstanding. 1. I don't disagree with you. 2. I'm not trying to take away funding from PhD students, nor am I trying to make them pay more. I simply advocate for undergraduate students to have a similar advantage like graduate students, e.g. they should be able to take pre-tax income given to them by the college (if they have a job) from their tuition, if they choose. 3. Top programs, like you've listed are funded, which weren't really the examples I were using (better to use small schools, which aren't funded at all).

beisner 9y ago

Ph.D. students, in the sciences and engineering at least, spend the majority of their time doing research that benefits the university. Much like professors, they have teaching obligations, make research contributions, and generally work to advance their field. While they are labeled students, the day-to-day life of a Ph.D. student looks more like an employee than a customer. This is why there’s been a push to unionize, and why even charging tuition in the first place is suspect.

tabeth 9y ago
Indeed. If it looks like an employee they should be paid like an employee.

ivcha 9y ago

I have to say that I stopped reading after the first point, which does not make any sense to me at all. Phd is so much different from undergrad, in terms of responsibilities and overall role at the university, aside from comparing doing research and courses.

tabeth 9y ago
I disagree that a PhD is "so much different from undergrad". In both cases a PhD and an undergraduate is paying for access to a professor. Do you disagree?
- jjoonathan 9y ago
  Yes. The professor / grad student relationship is essentially manager / employee, in that the professor acquires resources (grants), sets direction, manages, and politicks for the group while the grad students create the actual deliverables (perform experiments, write papers, help with grants and rec letters, train new members of the lab, etc). Professor / undergrad is a very different relationship since the undergrad is not creating deliverables that will help further the professor / research group's goals.
  - tabeth 9y ago
    If this is what you believe, then I've already covered it in my original post -- PhD students should be treated as employees. PhD "students" can be either employees or students, not both. Currently they're "both". --- Also, I'm not sure your post really refutes the notion that a PhD student is paying for access to a professor. A PhD student could receive a degree without access to the institution, so in both cases, undergrad or grad, the institution itself is what's being paid for.
    - jjoonathan 9y ago
      We agree that (PhD students like employees) => (PhD students should be paid like employees), but you also asserted ~(PhD students like employees) which I disagree with.