4 ms·

In the EU (at least in Germany) this would be illegal in a normal company because it is against the law and/of personal freedom! Why are this personal rules all

In the EU (at least in Germany) this would be illegal in a normal company because it is against the law and/of personal freedom! Why are this personal rules allowed in a company in the USA? Nobody should say to me that's ok or not ok to get in a relationship with one of my coworker and I have not to report it to my supervisor!

danso 9y ago
Sorry, but it seems we know too little at this point to already turn this into another debate about the puritanical oppression of American capitalism vs. the free love ethic elsewhere in the world. What has been reported thus far is this: > Google reportedly launched an internal investigation into Rubin’s relationship with a subordinate after a woman complained to Human Resources. The woman who filed a complaint to HR is said to have worked on the Android team, which Rubin ran. There are no details in the report on the nature of the woman’s relationship with Rubin. Google has a policy that does not allow relationships between supervisors and subordinates on the same team. Until we get more information and confirmation that the complaint involves a consensual, non-entangling relationship between Rubin and a subordinate and that maybe they're even halfway into planning their wedding -- and yet Rubin is still going to be given an ax, then maybe we can go into the culture wars. BTW, having a relationship with your coworker is not the same as having a relationship with your subordinate, though the latter is a subclass of the former.
- therealmarv 9y ago
  ok, thanks for clarification.
dpark 9y ago
Please provide some evidence that sexual/romantic relationships with subordinates is protected behavior in Germany. I cannot imagine that Germany has enshrined in law the right to have sex with subordinates.
- therealmarv 9y ago
  just search for "Persönlichkeitsrecht" related to work. One example: http://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2013-02/liebe-am-arbeitsplatz http://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2013-02/liebe-am-arbeitsplatz
  - dpark 9y ago
    That decision was (from what I can tell) about relationships with coworkers, not subordinates. Is there a decision asserting that it violates rights to ban relationships with subordinates? Given the clear avenue for abuse and harassment this creates, it seems like no liberal nation would protect this.
    - jsnk 9y ago
      coworkers are a superset of subordinates so this law would cover the case of subordinates.
      - dpark 9y ago
        Not necessarily. I don’t know how the decision was actually written. It may not have protected all coworker relationships. The fact that a newspaper article phrases is that way doesn’t mean it’s entirely accurate.
    - therealmarv 9y ago
      Let me tell this to you. No normal company operating in Germany can write in their internal rules that relationships between executives and subordinates are forbidden (maybe the military can do this). This is against the law "Persönlichkeitsrecht". If it affects visible the work for others then it can have consequences but the knowledge alone that an executive and subordinate have a romantic relationship cannot be declared as wrong in Germany. Another example for prove: http://www.bottroper-anwalt.de/artikel/liebe-arbeitsplatz-was__1440.html http://www.bottroper-anwalt.de/artikel/liebe-arbeitsplatz-wa...
      - 9y ago
pfarnsworth 9y ago
Do you not understand the power imbalance between an employee and an executive? How can a subordinate consent if their job is potentially on the line? This exists to protect people from being threatened into going into a relationship against their will. Every time a power imbalance exists there is always a chance it will be exploited and people must be protected from this.
- gnicholas 9y ago
  Also, other subordinates will likely be treated worse than the one who is dating the boss.
- DanielBMarkham 9y ago
  I agree. I want to make sure you don't overstate your case. It is possible to have a relationship with a subordinate that's nothing but equal and fair. People do it all the time. Where the problem comes in is when there's a problem, either somebody did something wrong or the people just don't get along anymore. Suddenly every little piece of the relationship is now the company's business -- and there's no way anybody can go back in time and piece together what happened in private between two consenting adults. This makes what is usually a private emotional mess between two adults (and possibly a criminal case if something was done wrong) into this huge corporate-wide drama that can never be resolved well. The only thing to do when something like this is discovered, crisis or not, is to fire both parties immediately for violating policy. So there's nothing puritanical going on at all here. And manager/subordinate relationships are not always bad and evil. Just from a practical standpoint, it makes the employer's job impossible to do well, so it has to be avoided.
rayiner 9y ago
Relationships between supervisors and subordinates can often be coercive, even when the supervisor does not mean it to be. If a supervisor asks out a subordinate, and she rejects his advance, can he ensure that he doesn't treat her any differently when it comes time for the next performance review? And even if he can, how does the subordinate know that the supervisor can remain objective despite being rejected? In that situation, subordinates often feel like they cannot reject such advances without consequences. And even if the subordinate knows and accepts the advances anyway, how can other subordinates know that the supervisor isn't giving favorable treatment to the target of his romantic overtures? Relationships between supervisors and subordinates are not illegal, but can open the company up to legal liability, for good reason. In America, we believe workers should be able to go to work free from various forms of harassment, whether based on religion, race, or gender. Romantic harassment falls into the same category. Women should be able to go to work and just do work, without being subjected to inherently coercive romantic overtures from their supervisors. When companies permit such situations to occur, they can be legally liable for failing to maintain an appropriate work environment. Thus, it is entirely reasonable to allow them to have personnel policies that address such potential liabilities.
- therealmarv 9y ago
  I agree that there can be problems. It's only a another mindset in Germany I think. There are problems and also legal consequences when it really affects the work in any way (even writing one personal/romantic mail is too much and can get you fired). In Germany you are hired & paid exclusively for your work and no boss can give you rules (or getting information about) what you do in your personal time (this includes private time beside work with coworkers and/or subordinates). It is even against the constitutional laws in Germany.
klmr 9y ago
I can’t speak for individual countries (though you seem to be right about the legality in Germany) but in general this is incorrect: My previous employer (a European intergovernmental organisation) had explicit, written rules against superiors dating their subordinates (they weren’t always enforced but that’s a different story).
- therealmarv 9y ago
  may I ask in which country did you worked? An German company can also have this rules... but not inside Germany of course ;)
  - klmr 9y ago
    Since it’s an intergovernmental organisation, the country of residence isn’t relevant: it’s not bound by local law. In fact, the company I’ve been working with has outstations in five different European countries, and all outstations have the same rules (and some of these rules explicitly contravene local law! — because labour law in the host countries has evolved a lot since the organisation was founded).
    - therealmarv 9y ago
      I've also some knowledge about international companies within the EU. What you are describing is not possible. Local law cannot be broken with location and workforce from an international organisation operating within that country (you cannot just go to another country and disrespect local law) unless there is an higher EU law which regulates this situation. Country of residence and country of doing your work (there is one main location somewhere where you work for) is for sure relevant to judge about this. If you're sent from another country to do your work in Germany for some time (I think maximum is 2 or 3 years within EU) is different but certain rules have no or more relevance while beeing in Germany. TL;DR: What your previous employer enforced is not legal to do in whole EU (pretty sure).
      - klmr 9y ago

danso 9y ago

Sorry, but it seems we know too little at this point to already turn this into another debate about the puritanical oppression of American capitalism vs. the free love ethic elsewhere in the world. What has been reported thus far is this: > Google reportedly launched an internal investigation into Rubin’s relationship with a subordinate after a woman complained to Human Resources. The woman who filed a complaint to HR is said to have worked on the Android team, which Rubin ran. There are no details in the report on the nature of the woman’s relationship with Rubin. Google has a policy that does not allow relationships between supervisors and subordinates on the same team. Until we get more information and confirmation that the complaint involves a consensual, non-entangling relationship between Rubin and a subordinate and that maybe they're even halfway into planning their wedding -- and yet Rubin is still going to be given an ax, then maybe we can go into the culture wars. BTW, having a relationship with your coworker is not the same as having a relationship with your subordinate, though the latter is a subclass of the former.

therealmarv 9y ago
ok, thanks for clarification.

dpark 9y ago

Please provide some evidence that sexual/romantic relationships with subordinates is protected behavior in Germany. I cannot imagine that Germany has enshrined in law the right to have sex with subordinates.

therealmarv 9y ago
just search for "Persönlichkeitsrecht" related to work. One example: http://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2013-02/liebe-am-arbeitsplatz http://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2013-02/liebe-am-arbeitsplatz
- dpark 9y ago
  That decision was (from what I can tell) about relationships with coworkers, not subordinates. Is there a decision asserting that it violates rights to ban relationships with subordinates? Given the clear avenue for abuse and harassment this creates, it seems like no liberal nation would protect this.
  - jsnk 9y ago
    coworkers are a superset of subordinates so this law would cover the case of subordinates.
    - dpark 9y ago
      Not necessarily. I don’t know how the decision was actually written. It may not have protected all coworker relationships. The fact that a newspaper article phrases is that way doesn’t mean it’s entirely accurate.
  - therealmarv 9y ago
    Let me tell this to you. No normal company operating in Germany can write in their internal rules that relationships between executives and subordinates are forbidden (maybe the military can do this). This is against the law "Persönlichkeitsrecht". If it affects visible the work for others then it can have consequences but the knowledge alone that an executive and subordinate have a romantic relationship cannot be declared as wrong in Germany. Another example for prove: http://www.bottroper-anwalt.de/artikel/liebe-arbeitsplatz-was__1440.html http://www.bottroper-anwalt.de/artikel/liebe-arbeitsplatz-wa...
    - 9y ago

pfarnsworth 9y ago

Do you not understand the power imbalance between an employee and an executive? How can a subordinate consent if their job is potentially on the line? This exists to protect people from being threatened into going into a relationship against their will. Every time a power imbalance exists there is always a chance it will be exploited and people must be protected from this.

gnicholas 9y ago
Also, other subordinates will likely be treated worse than the one who is dating the boss.
DanielBMarkham 9y ago
I agree. I want to make sure you don't overstate your case. It is possible to have a relationship with a subordinate that's nothing but equal and fair. People do it all the time. Where the problem comes in is when there's a problem, either somebody did something wrong or the people just don't get along anymore. Suddenly every little piece of the relationship is now the company's business -- and there's no way anybody can go back in time and piece together what happened in private between two consenting adults. This makes what is usually a private emotional mess between two adults (and possibly a criminal case if something was done wrong) into this huge corporate-wide drama that can never be resolved well. The only thing to do when something like this is discovered, crisis or not, is to fire both parties immediately for violating policy. So there's nothing puritanical going on at all here. And manager/subordinate relationships are not always bad and evil. Just from a practical standpoint, it makes the employer's job impossible to do well, so it has to be avoided.

rayiner 9y ago

Relationships between supervisors and subordinates can often be coercive, even when the supervisor does not mean it to be. If a supervisor asks out a subordinate, and she rejects his advance, can he ensure that he doesn't treat her any differently when it comes time for the next performance review? And even if he can, how does the subordinate know that the supervisor can remain objective despite being rejected? In that situation, subordinates often feel like they cannot reject such advances without consequences. And even if the subordinate knows and accepts the advances anyway, how can other subordinates know that the supervisor isn't giving favorable treatment to the target of his romantic overtures? Relationships between supervisors and subordinates are not illegal, but can open the company up to legal liability, for good reason. In America, we believe workers should be able to go to work free from various forms of harassment, whether based on religion, race, or gender. Romantic harassment falls into the same category. Women should be able to go to work and just do work, without being subjected to inherently coercive romantic overtures from their supervisors. When companies permit such situations to occur, they can be legally liable for failing to maintain an appropriate work environment. Thus, it is entirely reasonable to allow them to have personnel policies that address such potential liabilities.

therealmarv 9y ago
I agree that there can be problems. It's only a another mindset in Germany I think. There are problems and also legal consequences when it really affects the work in any way (even writing one personal/romantic mail is too much and can get you fired). In Germany you are hired & paid exclusively for your work and no boss can give you rules (or getting information about) what you do in your personal time (this includes private time beside work with coworkers and/or subordinates). It is even against the constitutional laws in Germany.

klmr 9y ago

I can’t speak for individual countries (though you seem to be right about the legality in Germany) but in general this is incorrect: My previous employer (a European intergovernmental organisation) had explicit, written rules against superiors dating their subordinates (they weren’t always enforced but that’s a different story).

therealmarv 9y ago
may I ask in which country did you worked? An German company can also have this rules... but not inside Germany of course ;)
- klmr 9y ago
  Since it’s an intergovernmental organisation, the country of residence isn’t relevant: it’s not bound by local law. In fact, the company I’ve been working with has outstations in five different European countries, and all outstations have the same rules (and some of these rules explicitly contravene local law! — because labour law in the host countries has evolved a lot since the organisation was founded).
  - therealmarv 9y ago
    I've also some knowledge about international companies within the EU. What you are describing is not possible. Local law cannot be broken with location and workforce from an international organisation operating within that country (you cannot just go to another country and disrespect local law) unless there is an higher EU law which regulates this situation. Country of residence and country of doing your work (there is one main location somewhere where you work for) is for sure relevant to judge about this. If you're sent from another country to do your work in Germany for some time (I think maximum is 2 or 3 years within EU) is different but certain rules have no or more relevance while beeing in Germany. TL;DR: What your previous employer enforced is not legal to do in whole EU (pretty sure).
    - klmr 9y ago