5 ms·

I know the founders personally (sorry M&J!) but in my professional capacity as a technology ethicist I think this is all shades of wrong. Trust isn't about kno

by liedra 16y ago

I know the founders personally (sorry M&J!) but in my professional capacity as a technology ethicist I think this is all shades of wrong. Trust isn't about knowing where your kids are, it's about communication. Children have rights to privacy as well, and this includes from their parents: being able to be independent and reason things through yourself ("should I wag school?"), looking at the consequences of the actions fully on the basis of other issues than "mum & dad can see where I am" is an important part of growing up too. This app seems to me to entirely catering to the overprotective, paranoid parents who cannot communicate with their children. It's not about whether the tech is right or effective, it's about whether we should, as a society, be encouraging this sort of tech and the behaviour that comes with it. And when it comes to encouraging independence, good communication, and healthy relationships, this sort of monitoring is not conducive to this. Sorry guys, I love supporting you but some of your apps are pretty questionable, ethically speaking :(

onan_barbarian 16y ago
How dare you accuse Mick of being ethically questionable? This app just grows from his natural desire to keep track of his two or more lovely children, as he has written about so passionately in this review of his own app: http://appcomments.com/user/42248226?country=143441 http://appcomments.com/user/42248226?country=143441
- Deestan 16y ago
  Because the app caters to an irrational fear while invading kids' privacy.
  - c1sc0 16y ago
    An extra upvote because you bring up irrational fears, which I believe are destroying the very fabric of our society. This is the same mechanism that justifies, CCTV camera, body scanners & co. I worry more about how fear is changing society than about the privacy issues.
jamesg 16y ago
Heya liedra, Well, we're definitely not professional ethicists. What we do do a lot of is talking to our customers, and the people we've spoken to, generally, haven't been the paranoid types that you describe. Generally they've been very level-headed people, and in speaking to them you can hear how much they care about their kids. One person we spoke to recently, though very concerned for knowing his kids locations, I think has much better data on the actual dangers to his children than most (certainly more than me, and I'd posit more than you). He was a police detective and loved the application because of the piece of mind that it gave him. I think I'm a reasonable judge of character, and in my evaluation, this wasn't a trust issue, it was just an early warning system to know when his family might be in danger. I don't know that we're encouraging paranoia. I think that paranoia will be there no matter what we do. I acknowledge that there's the potential for us to profit from it, but I guess I think you under-estimate parents, and I can see why: I did initially as well. To me, it comes down to this: when we first came up with this idea, I had a lot of the same reservations you do. But, we did our homework. We speak to people all the time about this. And my honest opinion is that parents are not as bad as you think.
- DavidSJ 16y ago
  There's almost no legitimate fear here. Kids are almost never abducted. Maybe most parents will tell themselves it's just for their kids' safety, but what do you think will happen when Jane spends the evening at her boyfriend's house instead of going to her music lesson? Do you think most parents are going to pretend they don't know? Does it matter? Jane is now living in a police state.
  - detst 16y ago
    While I generally agree with you, I think this can be done properly. Track and notify the kid every time their location information is accessed. They say they'll be home absolutely no later than midnight. Parents call at 12:30am with no answer. They try again at 12:45am without an answer and finally check location at 1:00am. The kid knows they are late, sees two missed calls on their phone, finally followed by the location check. I think that's a legitimate use that would be agreeable to most kids. While abductions numbers are low, things do happen to kids; being able to get their location when something seems wrong is a legitimate use, IMO. Sure it can be abused, but those parents are already invading their privacy in other ways.
shykes 16y ago
I think you're missing the value proposition entirely. It's not about stalking your children. It's about having the safety net: IF they go missing, I have a way to find them. It's an emotional safety net, yes. But in certain tragic circonstances it could mean the difference between life and death.
- DavidSJ 16y ago
  It's not about stalking your children. It's about having the safety net: IF they go missing, I have a way to find them. How many parents do you think would accept a decision by their children not to use this? Your logic is the logic of police states: it's not to hurt you, it's for your own good, so why do you need privacy anyways? Whatever the motivations of the authors, they are marketing their product to the unreasonable paranoia of parents (our society is actually really safe, people) and the effect of this software will be to make the lives of many children worse.
  - shykes 16y ago
    Your logic is the logic of police states: it's not to hurt you, it's for your own good, so why do you need privacy anyways? I'm not debating whether this product is good or bad. I'm simply arguing that its value proposition was misunderstood. You have strong opinions about what parents should or should not do - fine. And strong opinions about the value of privacy - still fine. But you're picking the wrong person to disagree with.
    - DavidSJ 16y ago
      I understand that the stated value proposition is to find out where your kids are when they get abducted. What I'm saying is that 1) that is not the perceived value proposition to the vast majority of its customers, 2) that is an entirely irrational concern to begin with, and 3) that even if it's bought with the intent to use it that way, it will be abused by almost every parent.
  - fragmede 16y ago
    For every parent that uses this service responsibly, I'll be there's another 5 who set the 'where are my kids map' as their homepage and obsessive watch their every move.
eagleal 16y ago
I don't worry about the privacy in the first place. What I'd really worry about is what happens when some backdoor captures and sends your child most frequent location to someone else? (now imagine that someone else as a network of pedophiles or organ traders) This is an iPhone app, I think it could be solved by using a specialized separate device (not connected to any other computer (including the Internet)).
- plinkplonk 16y ago
  "what happens when some backdoor captures and sends your child most frequent location to someone else? " Well I would think most people wouldn't be comfortable with any company having record of their kids locations all day, every day for years [1]. Why would any sane parent want to give away this data to a startup? Parents who buy this app are crazy(imo). [1]sure your cell phone service provide has this data but (a) that can't be helped (b) location tracking isn't their business and (c) they don't specifically target kids).
  - eagleal 16y ago
    Actually parents could buy the app, because it seems interesting; and then forget it and leave it there to run for years. I mean from a marketing standpoint you can sell it, and sell lots of it, but if you educate your users by saying that "by installing this app you increase the risk that bad people locate your children more easily, and then possibly kidnap them", I would doubt they'll buy it.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
retube 16y ago
Your reasoning is absolutely right. I wouldn't be surprised if the founders felt the same, or agree with you. Sadly however, often business success and ethics do not go hand in hand. Pandering to what people want - rightly or wrongly - is how businesses get built.

by liedra 16y ago

onan_barbarian 16y ago

How dare you accuse Mick of being ethically questionable? This app just grows from his natural desire to keep track of his two or more lovely children, as he has written about so passionately in this review of his own app: http://appcomments.com/user/42248226?country=143441 http://appcomments.com/user/42248226?country=143441

Deestan 16y ago
Because the app caters to an irrational fear while invading kids' privacy.
- c1sc0 16y ago
  An extra upvote because you bring up irrational fears, which I believe are destroying the very fabric of our society. This is the same mechanism that justifies, CCTV camera, body scanners & co. I worry more about how fear is changing society than about the privacy issues.

jamesg 16y ago

Heya liedra, Well, we're definitely not professional ethicists. What we do do a lot of is talking to our customers, and the people we've spoken to, generally, haven't been the paranoid types that you describe. Generally they've been very level-headed people, and in speaking to them you can hear how much they care about their kids. One person we spoke to recently, though very concerned for knowing his kids locations, I think has much better data on the actual dangers to his children than most (certainly more than me, and I'd posit more than you). He was a police detective and loved the application because of the piece of mind that it gave him. I think I'm a reasonable judge of character, and in my evaluation, this wasn't a trust issue, it was just an early warning system to know when his family might be in danger. I don't know that we're encouraging paranoia. I think that paranoia will be there no matter what we do. I acknowledge that there's the potential for us to profit from it, but I guess I think you under-estimate parents, and I can see why: I did initially as well. To me, it comes down to this: when we first came up with this idea, I had a lot of the same reservations you do. But, we did our homework. We speak to people all the time about this. And my honest opinion is that parents are not as bad as you think.

DavidSJ 16y ago
There's almost no legitimate fear here. Kids are almost never abducted. Maybe most parents will tell themselves it's just for their kids' safety, but what do you think will happen when Jane spends the evening at her boyfriend's house instead of going to her music lesson? Do you think most parents are going to pretend they don't know? Does it matter? Jane is now living in a police state.
- detst 16y ago
  While I generally agree with you, I think this can be done properly. Track and notify the kid every time their location information is accessed. They say they'll be home absolutely no later than midnight. Parents call at 12:30am with no answer. They try again at 12:45am without an answer and finally check location at 1:00am. The kid knows they are late, sees two missed calls on their phone, finally followed by the location check. I think that's a legitimate use that would be agreeable to most kids. While abductions numbers are low, things do happen to kids; being able to get their location when something seems wrong is a legitimate use, IMO. Sure it can be abused, but those parents are already invading their privacy in other ways.

shykes 16y ago

I think you're missing the value proposition entirely. It's not about stalking your children. It's about having the safety net: IF they go missing, I have a way to find them. It's an emotional safety net, yes. But in certain tragic circonstances it could mean the difference between life and death.

DavidSJ 16y ago
It's not about stalking your children. It's about having the safety net: IF they go missing, I have a way to find them. How many parents do you think would accept a decision by their children not to use this? Your logic is the logic of police states: it's not to hurt you, it's for your own good, so why do you need privacy anyways? Whatever the motivations of the authors, they are marketing their product to the unreasonable paranoia of parents (our society is actually really safe, people) and the effect of this software will be to make the lives of many children worse.
- shykes 16y ago
  Your logic is the logic of police states: it's not to hurt you, it's for your own good, so why do you need privacy anyways? I'm not debating whether this product is good or bad. I'm simply arguing that its value proposition was misunderstood. You have strong opinions about what parents should or should not do - fine. And strong opinions about the value of privacy - still fine. But you're picking the wrong person to disagree with.
  - DavidSJ 16y ago
    I understand that the stated value proposition is to find out where your kids are when they get abducted. What I'm saying is that 1) that is not the perceived value proposition to the vast majority of its customers, 2) that is an entirely irrational concern to begin with, and 3) that even if it's bought with the intent to use it that way, it will be abused by almost every parent.
- fragmede 16y ago
  For every parent that uses this service responsibly, I'll be there's another 5 who set the 'where are my kids map' as their homepage and obsessive watch their every move.

eagleal 16y ago

I don't worry about the privacy in the first place. What I'd really worry about is what happens when some backdoor captures and sends your child most frequent location to someone else? (now imagine that someone else as a network of pedophiles or organ traders) This is an iPhone app, I think it could be solved by using a specialized separate device (not connected to any other computer (including the Internet)).

plinkplonk 16y ago
"what happens when some backdoor captures and sends your child most frequent location to someone else? " Well I would think most people wouldn't be comfortable with any company having record of their kids locations all day, every day for years [1]. Why would any sane parent want to give away this data to a startup? Parents who buy this app are crazy(imo). [1]sure your cell phone service provide has this data but (a) that can't be helped (b) location tracking isn't their business and (c) they don't specifically target kids).
- eagleal 16y ago
  Actually parents could buy the app, because it seems interesting; and then forget it and leave it there to run for years. I mean from a marketing standpoint you can sell it, and sell lots of it, but if you educate your users by saying that "by installing this app you increase the risk that bad people locate your children more easily, and then possibly kidnap them", I would doubt they'll buy it.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]

retube 16y ago

Your reasoning is absolutely right. I wouldn't be surprised if the founders felt the same, or agree with you. Sadly however, often business success and ethics do not go hand in hand. Pandering to what people want - rightly or wrongly - is how businesses get built.