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You know, we've certainly had our differences in the past, but I can't help but think that you've been one of the few voices of reason in this whole thread. Th

You know, we've certainly had our differences in the past, but I can't help but think that you've been one of the few voices of reason in this whole thread. The number of people here who's entire understanding of the world comes from spy novels and geopolitical thrillers is just utterly dumbfounding.

rbanffy 16y ago
I have lived in a US-sponsored military dictatorship. There is strong evidence the US trained torturers and interrogators. Many dissidents disappeared in prisons. Remember the Iran-Contras thing? Extraordinary rendition? Don't tell me governments always play by the rules, because they don't. Specially when they can play the "national security" card.
- elblanco 16y ago
  I certainly can't disagree with the factual points you make. And it is my dear hope that people who have done various improper things are dealt with someday in a swift and stern manner. The management of U.S. foreign policy over the last decade or so has been piss poor and has done quite a bit of harm on a great many fronts. I believe that Governments should play by the rules, and that there are even pretty solid rules governing actions in places like Afghanistan that have not been well followed. I also agree that Governments have not been playing by the rules post 9-11 and would like to see that change. But there's a high degree of speculative cloak and dagger fantasizing going on around here (often called conspiracy theories) by people here who are probably too young to remember Iran-Contra yet think they have a keen understanding of the complete capabilities and limitations of the ability of NATO nations to conduct a war and apparently have decades worth of foreign policy experience. The amount of absolute nonsense spewed out here regarding expectations of everything from intelligence capabilities to the ability of us to negotiate with loosely non-aligned states with no government to the ability of a military operation to contain collateral damage is not just unrealistic, I've seen statements here that are beyond absurd. There seems to be a body of people here that think that not only is absolutely perfect security possible (in the sense of the ability of an intelligence apparatus to contain secrets), but that NATO possesses magic super weapons that can not only automatically determine who terrorists are in a civilian population, but can strike them down with pinpoint accuracy in a crowd of people without mussing the hair up of the guy sitting next to the target drinking his chai while teleporting out the tea-house owner and his family who let us know that some Taliban asshole was sitting in his store plotting to rape, murder and intimidate the local townspeople into following some misguided plan to install a global Caliphate. And that all this can be done in a half-hour time block with commercials. And then, based on this fantastical narrative, when these absurd expectations aren't met, think that it's a massive failure on the part of NATO and that they should just throw in the towel and let Afghanistan fall back into governance under the Taliban because obviously the whole thing has been a big failure. Clearly the "good guys" have chosen not to use their super weapons and teleporters to secure the battlefield and there must be some vast conspiracy why that is. I'm sorry, but I simply can't entertain this kind of moronic nonsense.
  - rbanffy 16y ago
    > But there's a high degree of speculative cloak and dagger fantasizing going on around here Can't argue with that > while teleporting out the tea-house owner and his family We have to assume the Pentagon knew what documents Manning leaked from the moment they apprehended him. With that info at hand, they had a couple weeks to arrange protection for informants whose names they could assume would be disclosed. This is an asymmetric war. It's impossible to win.

rbanffy 16y ago

I have lived in a US-sponsored military dictatorship. There is strong evidence the US trained torturers and interrogators. Many dissidents disappeared in prisons. Remember the Iran-Contras thing? Extraordinary rendition? Don't tell me governments always play by the rules, because they don't. Specially when they can play the "national security" card.

elblanco 16y ago
I certainly can't disagree with the factual points you make. And it is my dear hope that people who have done various improper things are dealt with someday in a swift and stern manner. The management of U.S. foreign policy over the last decade or so has been piss poor and has done quite a bit of harm on a great many fronts. I believe that Governments should play by the rules, and that there are even pretty solid rules governing actions in places like Afghanistan that have not been well followed. I also agree that Governments have not been playing by the rules post 9-11 and would like to see that change. But there's a high degree of speculative cloak and dagger fantasizing going on around here (often called conspiracy theories) by people here who are probably too young to remember Iran-Contra yet think they have a keen understanding of the complete capabilities and limitations of the ability of NATO nations to conduct a war and apparently have decades worth of foreign policy experience. The amount of absolute nonsense spewed out here regarding expectations of everything from intelligence capabilities to the ability of us to negotiate with loosely non-aligned states with no government to the ability of a military operation to contain collateral damage is not just unrealistic, I've seen statements here that are beyond absurd. There seems to be a body of people here that think that not only is absolutely perfect security possible (in the sense of the ability of an intelligence apparatus to contain secrets), but that NATO possesses magic super weapons that can not only automatically determine who terrorists are in a civilian population, but can strike them down with pinpoint accuracy in a crowd of people without mussing the hair up of the guy sitting next to the target drinking his chai while teleporting out the tea-house owner and his family who let us know that some Taliban asshole was sitting in his store plotting to rape, murder and intimidate the local townspeople into following some misguided plan to install a global Caliphate. And that all this can be done in a half-hour time block with commercials. And then, based on this fantastical narrative, when these absurd expectations aren't met, think that it's a massive failure on the part of NATO and that they should just throw in the towel and let Afghanistan fall back into governance under the Taliban because obviously the whole thing has been a big failure. Clearly the "good guys" have chosen not to use their super weapons and teleporters to secure the battlefield and there must be some vast conspiracy why that is. I'm sorry, but I simply can't entertain this kind of moronic nonsense.
- rbanffy 16y ago
  > But there's a high degree of speculative cloak and dagger fantasizing going on around here Can't argue with that > while teleporting out the tea-house owner and his family We have to assume the Pentagon knew what documents Manning leaked from the moment they apprehended him. With that info at hand, they had a couple weeks to arrange protection for informants whose names they could assume would be disclosed. This is an asymmetric war. It's impossible to win.