5 ms·

Can a judge hold a company in contempt and fine them for disobeying a judge? Even if Uber isn't guilty of stealing IP from Waymo they have certainly been less

Can a judge hold a company in contempt and fine them for disobeying a judge? Even if Uber isn't guilty of stealing IP from Waymo they have certainly been less than forthcoming. I'm sure that Waymo has done some shady stuff too. If a person withholds evidence or obstructs a case a judge can throw them in jail. What's the equivalent stick that the judge has to compel a corporation?

awalton 9y ago
> "I'm sure that Waymo has done some shady stuff too." Please point us to the memo from Uber that proves Waymo is operating a "Competitive Intelligence" team that looks more like a CIA Ops team than a Business Intelligence unit. I'll wait. This "2017 and there's Bad Guys on Both Sides" bullshit needs to die.
- ohsnapman 9y ago
  > "I'm sure that Waymo has done some shady stuff too." TLDR so what? it's completely unrelated to this case. However, because you asked: Google (in the Alphabet family) is being/has been sued/investigated for: - gender pay bias (unrelated to this case) - antitrust by the EU (unrelated to this case) - James Damore is preparing a lawsuit (LOLLLLLL and he has no case, also unrelated to this case) - antitrust by Missouri attorney general (unrelated to this case) - salary fixing with Apple (unrelated to this case) So top level's comment that Waymo/Google has done shady shit is true but ... what is your point? There's plenty of stuff we have evidence for, but there's no evidence they've done anything shady against Uber. Hell, geo division launched an Uber integration, the ventures arm even invested in Uber ...
  - awalton 9y ago
    I literally didn't ask, I said Whataboutism and "Both Sides" bullshit needs to die. But for some reason that makes the Uber Defenders League on HackerNews come out of the woodworks to say whatever they can to make Waymo look like the villain in a story whose entire contents is that Uber's lawyers withheld key evidence to Waymo's case and is operating a nightmarish "Competitive Intelligence" group like a 21st century foreign Intelligence Agency, on top of what we already know about police counterintelligence like Greyball. That makes me truly have to wonder if Uber's also operating an Astroturfing/"Grassroots" staff too.
    - vkou 9y ago
      In my defense, the initial tweets were scant on the details, and could have been... Somewhat reasonable corporate policies mis-construed for public outrage. Uber not forthcoming with this information during discovery is another story.
      - denzil_correa 9y ago
        > Uber not forthcoming with this information during discovery is another story. It is THE story.
- bllguo 9y ago
  Seriously, what's with this widespread assumption that because there are two sides, they must be relatively equal? The amount of harm this absurd belief has caused is immeasurable.
  - olympus 9y ago
    That was most definitely not the point I was trying to make, nor was it the question I asked.
  - pessimizer 9y ago
    It's just another form of the law of averages, the signature ingredient in the rationalizer's cookbook.
- linkregister 9y ago
  Why would a wholly-owned subsidiary that has no commercial products need a Business Intelligence arm? Of course Waymo doesn't have anything like that. "shady stuff" != "competitive intelligence team"
EnFinlay 9y ago
I hear you. If I'm understanding you properly, you're just saying "Waymo has done some shady stuffy too" to establish that you're not a fanatical "yay Waymo boo Uber" person and are willing to see fault regardless of which side it's on.
olympus 9y ago
Wow my comment was gravely misinterpreted it seems. I was asking if Alsup could fine Uber for their bad behavior. Normally a judge would throw a person in jail for contempt but you can't do that with a corporation. You can be held in contempt regardless of the outcome of the trial- i.e., even if Uber isn't found guilty would/could Alsup still fine them for slowing the trial down? The part that seems to have been misinterpreted was the extra comment about Waymo. I was trying to head off the eventual comment where someone said that Waymo hadn't played 100% fairly either (it's possible, they have lawyers too). I'm not saying that Waymo is bad, I was just trying to head off someone bringing up some sort of "both sides are doing it, so why not fine both sides" argument.
- AnimalMuppet 9y ago
  You can jail executives for the bad behavior of a corporation. (I know of one case where executives of a medical device corporation were trying to ignore the FDA, and the US Marshalls marched them out the door in handcuffs. Not even the door of a courtroom - they arrested them at their office.)
- jacksmith21006 9y ago
  What is the world did Waymo do that was shady here? Put something like that out there kind of need to back it up with something?
  - olympus 9y ago
    The backlash here shows that Uber has already been found guilty in the eyes of the public, the case isn't resolved. Waymo have a team of lawyers too, and they can't all be saints. They are in this to win and set back a competitor's efforts. In terms of shady stuff, do you remember how this case surfaced? Waymo was emailed Uber's design files by "accident." That's shady from day one on Waymo's side.

awalton 9y ago

> "I'm sure that Waymo has done some shady stuff too." Please point us to the memo from Uber that proves Waymo is operating a "Competitive Intelligence" team that looks more like a CIA Ops team than a Business Intelligence unit. I'll wait. This "2017 and there's Bad Guys on Both Sides" bullshit needs to die.

ohsnapman 9y ago
> "I'm sure that Waymo has done some shady stuff too." TLDR so what? it's completely unrelated to this case. However, because you asked: Google (in the Alphabet family) is being/has been sued/investigated for: - gender pay bias (unrelated to this case) - antitrust by the EU (unrelated to this case) - James Damore is preparing a lawsuit (LOLLLLLL and he has no case, also unrelated to this case) - antitrust by Missouri attorney general (unrelated to this case) - salary fixing with Apple (unrelated to this case) So top level's comment that Waymo/Google has done shady shit is true but ... what is your point? There's plenty of stuff we have evidence for, but there's no evidence they've done anything shady against Uber. Hell, geo division launched an Uber integration, the ventures arm even invested in Uber ...
- awalton 9y ago
  I literally didn't ask, I said Whataboutism and "Both Sides" bullshit needs to die. But for some reason that makes the Uber Defenders League on HackerNews come out of the woodworks to say whatever they can to make Waymo look like the villain in a story whose entire contents is that Uber's lawyers withheld key evidence to Waymo's case and is operating a nightmarish "Competitive Intelligence" group like a 21st century foreign Intelligence Agency, on top of what we already know about police counterintelligence like Greyball. That makes me truly have to wonder if Uber's also operating an Astroturfing/"Grassroots" staff too.
  - vkou 9y ago
    In my defense, the initial tweets were scant on the details, and could have been... Somewhat reasonable corporate policies mis-construed for public outrage. Uber not forthcoming with this information during discovery is another story.
    - denzil_correa 9y ago
      > Uber not forthcoming with this information during discovery is another story. It is THE story.
bllguo 9y ago
Seriously, what's with this widespread assumption that because there are two sides, they must be relatively equal? The amount of harm this absurd belief has caused is immeasurable.
- olympus 9y ago
  That was most definitely not the point I was trying to make, nor was it the question I asked.
- pessimizer 9y ago
  It's just another form of the law of averages, the signature ingredient in the rationalizer's cookbook.
linkregister 9y ago
Why would a wholly-owned subsidiary that has no commercial products need a Business Intelligence arm? Of course Waymo doesn't have anything like that. "shady stuff" != "competitive intelligence team"

EnFinlay 9y ago

I hear you. If I'm understanding you properly, you're just saying "Waymo has done some shady stuffy too" to establish that you're not a fanatical "yay Waymo boo Uber" person and are willing to see fault regardless of which side it's on.

olympus 9y ago

Wow my comment was gravely misinterpreted it seems. I was asking if Alsup could fine Uber for their bad behavior. Normally a judge would throw a person in jail for contempt but you can't do that with a corporation. You can be held in contempt regardless of the outcome of the trial- i.e., even if Uber isn't found guilty would/could Alsup still fine them for slowing the trial down? The part that seems to have been misinterpreted was the extra comment about Waymo. I was trying to head off the eventual comment where someone said that Waymo hadn't played 100% fairly either (it's possible, they have lawyers too). I'm not saying that Waymo is bad, I was just trying to head off someone bringing up some sort of "both sides are doing it, so why not fine both sides" argument.

AnimalMuppet 9y ago
You can jail executives for the bad behavior of a corporation. (I know of one case where executives of a medical device corporation were trying to ignore the FDA, and the US Marshalls marched them out the door in handcuffs. Not even the door of a courtroom - they arrested them at their office.)
jacksmith21006 9y ago
What is the world did Waymo do that was shady here? Put something like that out there kind of need to back it up with something?
- olympus 9y ago
  The backlash here shows that Uber has already been found guilty in the eyes of the public, the case isn't resolved. Waymo have a team of lawyers too, and they can't all be saints. They are in this to win and set back a competitor's efforts. In terms of shady stuff, do you remember how this case surfaced? Waymo was emailed Uber's design files by "accident." That's shady from day one on Waymo's side.