6 ms·
I feel somewhat ambivalent about this. I'm glad that Brown wants to eliminate student debt, and I'm glad that low income students at ivies often pay no tuition
by geebee 9y ago
I feel somewhat ambivalent about this. I'm glad that Brown wants to eliminate student debt, and I'm glad that low income students at ivies often pay no tuition. However, this doesn't change their essential model, which is to enroll a very small number of undergrads[1], deny admission to the vast majority of applicants, and generally lean toward affluent students.
Compare this with an elite public research university like UC Irvine or UC San Diego. I didn't say Berkeley or UCLA on purpose, I said UCI and UCSD because people often aren't aware of what research powerhouses mid tier UCs really are, that they produce far more groundbreaking research than many of the exalted ivies. In addition, these universities enroll a much larger number of undergraduates, and a much higher percentage of low income students. The result is that these institutions do far more for the US and the world - they produce exceptionally valuable research, and act as an engine for social mobility on a large scale. UCLA, for example, enrolls more low income students than the entire Ivy League combined. I believe this is true of several UC campuses, and until very recently, it was true of Berkeley as well.
In short, I don't want to see the ivies patting themselves on the back too much here for offering a sweet deal to low income students. It's a fine enough thing in itself, but let's be clear - the elite private college system is structured to ensure that the absolute number of low income students will always be very low. I'd be more impressed to hear that an ivy is scaling up like UC Irvine and offering a good deal to a high percentage of low income students, than to hear they're remaining tiny, and using a massive endowment to shower benefits on a minuscule number.
[1] Interestingly, Berkeley and Harvard enroll similar numbers of graduate students, who are often very profitable as low paid skilled labor for research labs. The divergence is at the undergraduate level.
- burritofanatic 9y agoI can confirm the general profile of undergraduate students at UC Irvine. I graduated in 2004 as a first-generation high school/college graduate and went on for an advanced degree. A substantial number of my classmates were also the same. I believe in the UC because, for the most part, it maintains its mission of providing Californians access to higher education if you want it. I recall the rule (not sure if it's still the same) that if you are within the top 10% of your high school class, you will be admitted to a UC campus so long as you meet a minimum SAT score.
- dwcnnnghm 9y agoThis is true except for Berkeley and UCLA. They require you to submit separate applications (at the very least at some high schools, it could be that the elite high schools in California are allowed admittance into any UC).
- dragonwriter 9y ago> I recall the rule (not sure if it's still the same) that if you are within the top 10% of your high school class, you will be admitted to a UC campus so long as you meet a minimum SAT score. If you are in the top 9% of all California graduates, and you are not accepted at any of the campuses you applied to, you will be offered a space at some other UC campus, if there is space available. [0] If you are in the top 9% of your California high school class, that's a competitive factor in admissions but not a guarantee of admission. [1] [0] http://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/freshman/california-residents/admissions-index/index.html http://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/freshman/califor... [1] http://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/freshman/california-residents/local-path/index.html http://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/freshman/califor...
- cphillips 9y agoBrown (and most likely all other Ivies) is need-blind (except for international students). So, unless you think they are lying, your point doesn't stand on limiting low-income students. You point on size of college is an altogether different issue. "Beginning with the Class of 2007, Brown implemented its need-blind admission policy. Need-blind admission simply means that an applicant's ability to pay for their education will not be a factor in the admission decision" https://www.brown.edu/about/administration/financial-aid/need-blind-admission https://www.brown.edu/about/administration/financial-aid/nee...
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- MikeTheGreat 9y agoI want to start by saying that it's awesome that Brown, Cornell, Yale, and whatever other Ivies are need-blind. That's awesome, and I applaud them for it. That said, economic status and academic performance correlate closely. A college that's very selective will necessarily filter out a lot of lower-income kids purely because it's hard to do extra-curriculars if you need to work after school and/or if you can't afford them, it's hard to get good grades if you're worried about whether you get to eat this week, etc. My point being that Brown can be both need blind and not have a lot of lower-income kids there.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- throwaway2312 9y ago>My point being that Brown can be both need blind and not have a lot of lower-income kids there. This is a very hard problem to solve for a university alone. In India, there is affirmative action AKA "reservation" and trust me that system has it's own perils. I still think meritocracy is the way to go while having systems developed by the govt. to help the under privileged kids meet that bar.
- zjaffee 9y agoUCLA is actually important to note, as from a NYTimes study, they turn the largest population of students who grew up in the bottom 20% to people who are in the top 20% of income earners.
- rohunati 9y agoDo you have a source? this is really interesting, would love to read more.
- lawlesst 9y agoI believe this is the study that's being referred to. It's not by the NYT but they wrote about research by economist Raj Chetty, of Stanford, and others. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/18/opinion/sunday/americas-great-working-class-colleges.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/18/opinion/sunday/americas-g...