3 ms·

>You simply are not in full control of the OS. A great thing for 99% of the users.

by ryanlol 9y ago

adrianN 9y ago
Not having the possibility to control things and not having to control things are two very different things.
- ryanlol 9y ago
  Users are extraordinarily stupid. Not having the possibility to control things is a Good Thing.
  - ekianjo 9y ago
    No, they are uneducated about the complexity of what they are dealing with, big difference. Not stupid and unable to learn.
    - ryanlol 9y ago
      Do you think it’s a Good Thing when users lose all of their data to WannaCry or have their bank accounts emptied? I do not. The vast majority of users simply do not benefit from being exposed to such complexity, it certainly shouldn’t be the default.
      - BeefySwain 9y ago
        You can both lock down the UI to minimize user error, and allow informed users to have complete control of the system. Think safety locks on pill bottles or cabinets.
        macintux 9y ago
        There are plenty of people who can't be trusted not to make poor decisions about technology they don't understand. Safety locks aren't enough.
        njarboe 9y ago
        Live and learn?
        ryanlol 9y ago
        Not a good approach when designing products for the masses.
  - jasonkostempski 9y ago
    People are extraordinarily stupid. And selfish. And greedy. And all sorts of other bad things. Giving control to other people isn't any better.
    - ryanlol 9y ago
      Would you rather have your grandmother do her banking on a windows laptop or a device running iOS?
      - kuschku 9y ago
        On a laptop, ofc. All the secure stuff happens on external hardware, and the laptop at least allows using it. Most banks in Germany allow HBCI, so you get an external chip reader, any HBCI-compliant software – be it StarMoney, or GnuCash/KMyMoney with the HBCI plugin – configure your account, and authorize API accesses via the card and PIN on an external keypad (which shows what you’re authorizing on its own display). This is the average way a consumer does online banking, and it’s much more secure than on iOS.
        ryanlol 9y ago
        >This is the average way a consumer does online banking, and it’s much more secure than on iOS. lol. At least on iOS they can trust what they see. On desktop they can't, https://securityintelligence.com/tatanga-attack-exposes-chiptan-weaknesses/ https://securityintelligence.com/tatanga-attack-exposes-chip... All of your security theater falls apart when the device is infected with malware that can make the bank site say anything. On iOS your banks app/site will never ever lie to you, if it does it'll almost certainly be the banks fault and not the users.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        germanier 9y ago
        The idea is to get a dedicated device[0] which uses your bank card to sign the transaction and shows transaction details on its own display. That's probably even harder to infect than iOS. While German banks support that almost universally, hardly anybody uses it. [0]: https://shop.reiner-sct.com/chipkartenleser-fuer-die-sicherheitsklasse-3/cyberjack-secoder-usb https://shop.reiner-sct.com/chipkartenleser-fuer-die-sicherh...
asdgkknio 9y ago
I disagree. There's NO situation where this kind of update is good for users. Being unable to accidentally brick your machine is good, but no user benefits from having adware and spyware installed.
- ryanlol 9y ago
  >but no user benefits from having adware and spyware installed. Sure, but my point is mostly that generally restricting user freedom results in much less of such getting installed.
  - wfo 9y ago
    Sure, if you trust the OS. But what if the OS itself forces spyware and adware into your machine without your permission and it is not removable, like Windows 10 does... The ability to control your machine is always good for users in the long run, though you're right it's important to make stupid changes very difficult for less sophisticated users. Perhaps your bank should control your money so that you don't spend it unwisely? Users are stupid, after all.
ekianjo 9y ago
They are technically being used rather than using the system.
yummy 9y ago
I hate Win10 with passion, but I agree. Don't know why you get downvoted. One of my father's laptops runs Xubuntu. It's totally fine too. He doesn't even know what root permissions are and he never needs them. But still, sometimes he has to install something and I have to help. The point is, I never get asked to help with W10 neither from friends or family, which is actually amazing.

>You simply are not in full control of the OS. A great thing for 99% of the users.

adrianN 9y ago

Not having the possibility to control things and not having to control things are two very different things.

ryanlol 9y ago
Users are extraordinarily stupid. Not having the possibility to control things is a Good Thing.
- ekianjo 9y ago
  No, they are uneducated about the complexity of what they are dealing with, big difference. Not stupid and unable to learn.
  - ryanlol 9y ago
    Do you think it’s a Good Thing when users lose all of their data to WannaCry or have their bank accounts emptied? I do not. The vast majority of users simply do not benefit from being exposed to such complexity, it certainly shouldn’t be the default.
    - BeefySwain 9y ago
      You can both lock down the UI to minimize user error, and allow informed users to have complete control of the system. Think safety locks on pill bottles or cabinets.
      - macintux 9y ago
        There are plenty of people who can't be trusted not to make poor decisions about technology they don't understand. Safety locks aren't enough.
        njarboe 9y ago
        Live and learn?
        ryanlol 9y ago
        Not a good approach when designing products for the masses.
- jasonkostempski 9y ago
  People are extraordinarily stupid. And selfish. And greedy. And all sorts of other bad things. Giving control to other people isn't any better.
  - ryanlol 9y ago
    Would you rather have your grandmother do her banking on a windows laptop or a device running iOS?
    - kuschku 9y ago
      On a laptop, ofc. All the secure stuff happens on external hardware, and the laptop at least allows using it. Most banks in Germany allow HBCI, so you get an external chip reader, any HBCI-compliant software – be it StarMoney, or GnuCash/KMyMoney with the HBCI plugin – configure your account, and authorize API accesses via the card and PIN on an external keypad (which shows what you’re authorizing on its own display). This is the average way a consumer does online banking, and it’s much more secure than on iOS.
      - ryanlol 9y ago
        >This is the average way a consumer does online banking, and it’s much more secure than on iOS. lol. At least on iOS they can trust what they see. On desktop they can't, https://securityintelligence.com/tatanga-attack-exposes-chiptan-weaknesses/ https://securityintelligence.com/tatanga-attack-exposes-chip... All of your security theater falls apart when the device is infected with malware that can make the bank site say anything. On iOS your banks app/site will never ever lie to you, if it does it'll almost certainly be the banks fault and not the users.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        germanier 9y ago
        The idea is to get a dedicated device[0] which uses your bank card to sign the transaction and shows transaction details on its own display. That's probably even harder to infect than iOS. While German banks support that almost universally, hardly anybody uses it. [0]: https://shop.reiner-sct.com/chipkartenleser-fuer-die-sicherheitsklasse-3/cyberjack-secoder-usb https://shop.reiner-sct.com/chipkartenleser-fuer-die-sicherh...

asdgkknio 9y ago

I disagree. There's NO situation where this kind of update is good for users. Being unable to accidentally brick your machine is good, but no user benefits from having adware and spyware installed.

ryanlol 9y ago
>but no user benefits from having adware and spyware installed. Sure, but my point is mostly that generally restricting user freedom results in much less of such getting installed.
- wfo 9y ago
  Sure, if you trust the OS. But what if the OS itself forces spyware and adware into your machine without your permission and it is not removable, like Windows 10 does... The ability to control your machine is always good for users in the long run, though you're right it's important to make stupid changes very difficult for less sophisticated users. Perhaps your bank should control your money so that you don't spend it unwisely? Users are stupid, after all.

ekianjo 9y ago

They are technically being used rather than using the system.

yummy 9y ago

I hate Win10 with passion, but I agree. Don't know why you get downvoted. One of my father's laptops runs Xubuntu. It's totally fine too. He doesn't even know what root permissions are and he never needs them. But still, sometimes he has to install something and I have to help. The point is, I never get asked to help with W10 neither from friends or family, which is actually amazing.