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There's just a generalized lack of understanding about web technology among web developers. I don't think many web developers even pay attention to browser feat

There's just a generalized lack of understanding about web technology among web developers. I don't think many web developers even pay attention to browser features until they are popularized by some new framework. Frontend developers are bad, but backend developers are guilty too. While frontend developers are breaking scrolling and the back button, backend developers are busy breaking authentication, security, and caching. I think the only solution is to form some kind of developer's association dedicated to training and best practices. I hesitate to say "union," because the problem of over-under-engineering could be our fault, not necessarily our employers' (although pressuring new grads to deliver code at the same pace as their peers may contribute). It would be great if there were more bootcamps that just trained frontend devs on the latest HTML, CSS, and plain Javascript before WASM and React abstract the frontend away entirely.

romanovcode 9y ago
> many web developers even pay attention to browser features What's the point when your business is required to support IE9. > It would be great if there were more bootcamps that just trained frontend devs on the latest HTML, CSS, and plain Javascript. Nobody would go there because that's not where the money's at.
- tboyd47 9y ago
  > What's the point when your business is required to support IE9. EOL for IE9 was almost 2 years ago. > Nobody would go there because that's not where the money's at. That's exactly my point. At some point we need to find a way to guide the indsutry back in the direction of technical sanity. If not bootcamps, then it has to be developers I guess.
  - romanovcode 9y ago
    > then it has to be developers I guess. Experience comes with time, most developers sooner or later will realise that writing easy-to-read code on stable boring technologies is much better. I don't think a bootcamp can help with that tho :)
  - TremendousJudge 9y ago
    >EOL for IE9 was almost 2 years ago. tell that to the people that use it
    - osrec 9y ago
      And a lot of the firms that use it also tend to be large and have very deep pockets. You pretty much have to cater to their every need, because they pay well.
      - tboyd47 9y ago
        If they can afford to pay me to spend all day writing workarounds for IE9, why couldn't they afford to upgrade their users to a secure browser?
        shagie 9y ago
        It is much easier and less expensive to pay a developer to keep writing those workarounds than to recertify all of the internal applications to a modern version of IE. Furthermore there is a significant time cost to the testing and deployment of a new browser to all machines. These two times and costs are often several times if not an order of magnitude or more the developer cost.
        tboyd47 9y ago
        Interesting, thanks. I honestly didn't know companies still used IE9. My employers stopped supporting it on EOL.
        megaman22 9y ago
        We have customers that still want support for IE8... The inertia in some of these organizations is monumental.
        zaarn 9y ago
        You're applying logic to a software issue at BigCorp, that assumption is, sadly, wrong. A lot of the time it's some kind of support contract though. Somebody at some point in time had a brain fart and signed a contract for a Website running in IE9 for the next 20 years and now they will have to support that, cost it what it might.
  - zaarn 9y ago
    >EOL for IE9 was almost 2 years ago. Not in the real world. In the real world IE9 is very much alive and going ... well, I guess.
wruza 9y ago
>training and best practices <...> the problem of over-under-engineering That’s what you have to have once you throw a bunch of tools, planks and screws at first graders and let them go. In my 20s I used few local enterprise solutions to help local micro-businesses do their accounting. The base system was obviously dumb and too restrictive to create “apps (tm)”, but it did its job very well. One specific thing about it was that it was infinitely hard (read: know C++/COM and be able to investigate platform issues) to create extensions for it and/or manipulate basic blocks like you can do with web trinity. The result is that no one went that long route of dominating the market with shady solutions that have value from non-tech faces, but are technically crap. Seeing what some devs could do even in these conditions, I can tell that it was a good state of things for the tasks that platform meant to solve. I may seem jump on topics on this one, but to not write a poem, look: Perl’s tmtowtdi is highly criticized, but what web allows is a “there are infinite ways to do it” paradigm with no basic blocks or “best practices” like you name it. Summed up: if you’re writing apps that do edit objects, there is no room for custom element offsets, scroll handlers, sql statements (except select for few cases) and knowledge of http cookies, headers, urls, etc. If you can’t define a datascheme with two clicks, draw a form layout by hand and write final logic after 5 minutes, deploying in half a hour, without caring what platforms/databases/browsers/ languages/frameworks/backups/ maintenance/ides do you choose, then there is no room for business or app logic in your head. >the latest HTML, CSS, and plain Javascript Today it is like chasing specifics of plain 80386 assembly — the knowledge that ages faster than you can read on it from zero to top professional experience. If things didn’t get better in a decade, then it is a dead end. Plank, screw and hammer problem never gets old.
- tboyd47 9y ago
  > I can tell that it was a good state of things How can we make the situation for web development more like the accounting platform you described?
  - wruza 9y ago
    We need more distinct platforms that have specific area experience and engineering behind these. "Web" is driven by advertisement specialists and vendors, what else to say.

romanovcode 9y ago

> many web developers even pay attention to browser features What's the point when your business is required to support IE9. > It would be great if there were more bootcamps that just trained frontend devs on the latest HTML, CSS, and plain Javascript. Nobody would go there because that's not where the money's at.

tboyd47 9y ago
> What's the point when your business is required to support IE9. EOL for IE9 was almost 2 years ago. > Nobody would go there because that's not where the money's at. That's exactly my point. At some point we need to find a way to guide the indsutry back in the direction of technical sanity. If not bootcamps, then it has to be developers I guess.
- romanovcode 9y ago
  > then it has to be developers I guess. Experience comes with time, most developers sooner or later will realise that writing easy-to-read code on stable boring technologies is much better. I don't think a bootcamp can help with that tho :)
- TremendousJudge 9y ago
  >EOL for IE9 was almost 2 years ago. tell that to the people that use it
  - osrec 9y ago
    And a lot of the firms that use it also tend to be large and have very deep pockets. You pretty much have to cater to their every need, because they pay well.
    - tboyd47 9y ago
      If they can afford to pay me to spend all day writing workarounds for IE9, why couldn't they afford to upgrade their users to a secure browser?
      - shagie 9y ago
        It is much easier and less expensive to pay a developer to keep writing those workarounds than to recertify all of the internal applications to a modern version of IE. Furthermore there is a significant time cost to the testing and deployment of a new browser to all machines. These two times and costs are often several times if not an order of magnitude or more the developer cost.
        tboyd47 9y ago
        Interesting, thanks. I honestly didn't know companies still used IE9. My employers stopped supporting it on EOL.
        megaman22 9y ago
        We have customers that still want support for IE8... The inertia in some of these organizations is monumental.
      - zaarn 9y ago
        You're applying logic to a software issue at BigCorp, that assumption is, sadly, wrong. A lot of the time it's some kind of support contract though. Somebody at some point in time had a brain fart and signed a contract for a Website running in IE9 for the next 20 years and now they will have to support that, cost it what it might.
- zaarn 9y ago
  >EOL for IE9 was almost 2 years ago. Not in the real world. In the real world IE9 is very much alive and going ... well, I guess.

wruza 9y ago

>training and best practices <...> the problem of over-under-engineering That’s what you have to have once you throw a bunch of tools, planks and screws at first graders and let them go. In my 20s I used few local enterprise solutions to help local micro-businesses do their accounting. The base system was obviously dumb and too restrictive to create “apps (tm)”, but it did its job very well. One specific thing about it was that it was infinitely hard (read: know C++/COM and be able to investigate platform issues) to create extensions for it and/or manipulate basic blocks like you can do with web trinity. The result is that no one went that long route of dominating the market with shady solutions that have value from non-tech faces, but are technically crap. Seeing what some devs could do even in these conditions, I can tell that it was a good state of things for the tasks that platform meant to solve. I may seem jump on topics on this one, but to not write a poem, look: Perl’s tmtowtdi is highly criticized, but what web allows is a “there are infinite ways to do it” paradigm with no basic blocks or “best practices” like you name it. Summed up: if you’re writing apps that do edit objects, there is no room for custom element offsets, scroll handlers, sql statements (except select for few cases) and knowledge of http cookies, headers, urls, etc. If you can’t define a datascheme with two clicks, draw a form layout by hand and write final logic after 5 minutes, deploying in half a hour, without caring what platforms/databases/browsers/ languages/frameworks/backups/ maintenance/ides do you choose, then there is no room for business or app logic in your head. >the latest HTML, CSS, and plain Javascript Today it is like chasing specifics of plain 80386 assembly — the knowledge that ages faster than you can read on it from zero to top professional experience. If things didn’t get better in a decade, then it is a dead end. Plank, screw and hammer problem never gets old.

tboyd47 9y ago
> I can tell that it was a good state of things How can we make the situation for web development more like the accounting platform you described?
- wruza 9y ago
  We need more distinct platforms that have specific area experience and engineering behind these. "Web" is driven by advertisement specialists and vendors, what else to say.