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> Bitcoin is useless, you can't do anything with it, except buying and waiting that others buy after you so the price rises up: that's pretty much the definitio

> Bitcoin is useless, you can't do anything with it, except buying and waiting that others buy after you so the price rises up: that's pretty much the definition of speculation. a) How is that different that how it was in the beginning? and b) I beg to disagree - Instantaneous global transfer of value as well as a store of value that cannot be (easily) confiscated seems like something that could amount to something useful.

tigershark 9y ago
Instantaneous? Are you really using bitcoin?In that case, are you spending 100$ per transaction?
- nmj 9y ago
  You can easily be confirmed within approximately 10 minutes (the fastest possible time) for about $4 USD. The volume of Bitcoin (on chain) and competition to enter a block is healthy. It is nowhere near $100.
chrischen 9y ago
for b) centralized stores of value such as PayPal also offer instantaneous global transfer (at least among PayPal accounts). And Bitcoin current is not even instantaneous. As far as "easily confiscated" this is not true for fiat currencies. If you hold your cash in fiat currencies and use an account such as PayPal to hold small amounts for actual (even global) transactions, it's practically superior to Bitcoin.
- moduspol 9y ago
  There's nothing instantaneous about PayPal. It just has the appearance of being instant. If they can revoke funds you've sent or received at any time (and they do), you haven't actually sent or received them. If it then takes days to get the funds where PayPal can't indiscriminately take them, then it takes days to actually send or receive money. Also--if you're going to hold your cash in fiat, be sure it's not in Venezuela, Zimbabwe, Cyprus, or India. And keep telling yourself issues like theirs can't happen with the fiat currency you're using.
  - zaarn 9y ago
    SEPA SCT Inst will take around 15 seconds and there is no chargeback once it has arrived at your bank. Fees are low or zero. At present day, SEPA SCT (no Inst) offers low to zero fee same-day transactions, Bitcoin transactions of the same fee will take longer (I had one stuck for a couple days at a 5ct fee this year)
    - moduspol 9y ago
      If I initiate one now for $10,000 and send it to you, you'll be able to walk into your bank and withdraw $10,000 in 15 seconds? Would you be able to re-send that $10,000 to someone else after that 15 seconds? I'm no expert on SEPA, but it looks to me like (as a practical matter) we are not talking about 15 seconds for normal people [1]. [1] https://ingpcm.com/en/payments-collections/sepa/sepa-credit-transfer https://ingpcm.com/en/payments-collections/sepa/sepa-credit-...
      - zaarn 9y ago
        SCT (SEPA Credit Transfer) takes longer yes. SCT Inst, the new standard that is coming out is 15 seconds and yes, if you send me 10k$ I can book those 10k$ elsewhere within those 15 seconds (if I can type my TAN that fast)
    - nmj 9y ago
      If you believe USD will maintain its value (which historically it hasn't) and that banks will not steal your money (which historically they have), then why even use Bitcoin. You're arguing the wrong points, it's not about who can be faster than who, "I can change database values faster than anyone!" It's about guarantees on that action and no central entity (e.g. Bank) can match the guarantee provided by the decentralized, trustless nature of Bitcoin.
      - zaarn 9y ago
        SEPA is the EU, not the US, so atleast for me it's not about the USD at all. I can agree that Bitcoin can makes some guarantees that a Bank for example could not make. But to some extend I doubt I need those guarantees, my bank hasn't stolen from me and has no track record of doing so, personally, I'm fine with trusting them for most of my net value. That of course doesn't mean I don't play around with Cryptocurrencies, Ethereum is quite an exciting tool to play around with for example. Bitcoin is a bit boring though, plenty of other coins have replicated the functionality.

tigershark 9y ago

Instantaneous? Are you really using bitcoin?In that case, are you spending 100$ per transaction?

nmj 9y ago
You can easily be confirmed within approximately 10 minutes (the fastest possible time) for about $4 USD. The volume of Bitcoin (on chain) and competition to enter a block is healthy. It is nowhere near $100.

chrischen 9y ago

for b) centralized stores of value such as PayPal also offer instantaneous global transfer (at least among PayPal accounts). And Bitcoin current is not even instantaneous. As far as "easily confiscated" this is not true for fiat currencies. If you hold your cash in fiat currencies and use an account such as PayPal to hold small amounts for actual (even global) transactions, it's practically superior to Bitcoin.

moduspol 9y ago
There's nothing instantaneous about PayPal. It just has the appearance of being instant. If they can revoke funds you've sent or received at any time (and they do), you haven't actually sent or received them. If it then takes days to get the funds where PayPal can't indiscriminately take them, then it takes days to actually send or receive money. Also--if you're going to hold your cash in fiat, be sure it's not in Venezuela, Zimbabwe, Cyprus, or India. And keep telling yourself issues like theirs can't happen with the fiat currency you're using.
- zaarn 9y ago
  SEPA SCT Inst will take around 15 seconds and there is no chargeback once it has arrived at your bank. Fees are low or zero. At present day, SEPA SCT (no Inst) offers low to zero fee same-day transactions, Bitcoin transactions of the same fee will take longer (I had one stuck for a couple days at a 5ct fee this year)
  - moduspol 9y ago
    If I initiate one now for $10,000 and send it to you, you'll be able to walk into your bank and withdraw $10,000 in 15 seconds? Would you be able to re-send that $10,000 to someone else after that 15 seconds? I'm no expert on SEPA, but it looks to me like (as a practical matter) we are not talking about 15 seconds for normal people [1]. [1] https://ingpcm.com/en/payments-collections/sepa/sepa-credit-transfer https://ingpcm.com/en/payments-collections/sepa/sepa-credit-...
    - zaarn 9y ago
      SCT (SEPA Credit Transfer) takes longer yes. SCT Inst, the new standard that is coming out is 15 seconds and yes, if you send me 10k$ I can book those 10k$ elsewhere within those 15 seconds (if I can type my TAN that fast)
  - nmj 9y ago
    If you believe USD will maintain its value (which historically it hasn't) and that banks will not steal your money (which historically they have), then why even use Bitcoin. You're arguing the wrong points, it's not about who can be faster than who, "I can change database values faster than anyone!" It's about guarantees on that action and no central entity (e.g. Bank) can match the guarantee provided by the decentralized, trustless nature of Bitcoin.
    - zaarn 9y ago
      SEPA is the EU, not the US, so atleast for me it's not about the USD at all. I can agree that Bitcoin can makes some guarantees that a Bank for example could not make. But to some extend I doubt I need those guarantees, my bank hasn't stolen from me and has no track record of doing so, personally, I'm fine with trusting them for most of my net value. That of course doesn't mean I don't play around with Cryptocurrencies, Ethereum is quite an exciting tool to play around with for example. Bitcoin is a bit boring though, plenty of other coins have replicated the functionality.