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> What to Do Next Demand the end of lobbying in order to restore democracy instead of living under the defacto rule of bog-corps (and their owners).

by cies 9y ago

hardwaresofton 9y ago
Maybe I'm too synical but that just seems impossible. Also, I don't know of an anywhere-near-ideally functioning democracy in the world (maybe I just haven't read anywhere). Recently I've started to think that democracy is never the steady state of any government, it's just a stepping stone to democratic republics and then to oligarchy. I mean just think about it. who's in the best position to influence the will of a large amount of people? people with the most resources. That's (probably) never going to change -- technological advances are the only things that seem to truly shake things up (as well as revolutions I guess), and even that has been successfully controlled/regulated. The only thing I can see as the future for the internet is mesh networks and a separation of the federated internet and a decentralized one.
- RonanTheGrey 9y ago
  I can imagine a technology that aggressively defends its own openness, partly based on AI. E.g. any attempt to constrain it causes it to go full-on Chaos Monkey and start breaking things - a technology that enforces liberty on the society using it. Sounds a bit dystopian perhaps but hey, maybe we deserve it.
  - hardwaresofton 9y ago
    I think I understand what you meant (trying to detect bad actors through AI), but I don't think you need AI to do it. If it was easy to just buy a 3G radio and start hooking together nodes and create a new internet (with speed being a huge sacrifice), that could easily be the way forward. Bitcoin is a good example that basically raised the stakes for control to >50% of the nodes -- any other quorum system would do the same, but that basically moves the problem to "who has enough money to buy/confiscate lots of nodes". The real solution is something provably and completely decentralized. Maybe we need to go back to the stoneage -- create a new net, and start building the links one by one, person to person, and only use the traditional net as a place to store public keys or something.
- cies 9y ago
  > I don't know of an anywhere-near-ideally functioning democracy in the world Democracies need to be running at a small scale. Check out the swiss: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSLs5G4SPP4&t=64s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSLs5G4SPP4&t=64s Of read up on "democratic confederalism" (now used in the north of Syria): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqfoJvD0Ifg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqfoJvD0Ifg > I mean just think about it. who's in the best position to influence the will of a large amount of people? With lobbying you do not even have to go by the people, you simply pay-to-play in politics. That's just legalized corruption, thus anti-democratic. > Recently I've started to think that democracy is never the steady state of any government, it's just a stepping stone to democratic republics and then to oligarchy. That's an obvious progression if the democracy is highly centralized and lobbyable (or otherwise corrupt). > technological advances are the only things that seem to truly shake things up Currently tech it largely "bought", and thus used in the advantage of the capital-heavy. Nature and labor are totally subservient to capital in the current system. A well functioning democracy can turn that around, but they seems to be increasingly less functioning.
  - hardwaresofton 9y ago
    so basically democracy doesn't scale? I agree with what you pointed out, but maybe I should have noted that I meant for any large-ish nation. Maybe it would be better if I rephrased: I don't think it's possible for a large nation to have a well-functioning democracy for a long period of time. Unless the democracy is damn near (or actually) perfect, someone will eventually get the upper hand, start a pay-to-play system or find a way to slide the scales and you'll get on that same old progression. [EDIT] - wanted to note that I really appreciate the links, watching them now, thanks!
    - cies 9y ago
      > so basically democracy doesn't scale? Doesn't scale "up", but scales "out" well :) > Maybe it would be better if I rephrased: I don't think it's possible for a large nation to have a well-functioning democracy for a long period of time. Unless the democracy is damn near (or actually) perfect, someone will eventually get the upper hand, start a pay-to-play system or find a way to slide the scales and you'll get on that same old progression. Yes. I agree. Democracy should be on low(est) geographical regions. And "perfect" is the enemy of "good enough". Some large nations have (had) quite "ok" democracies (the swiss, some of the scandies, and now maybe some baltics as well -- arguably they are not very big nations though). > [EDIT] - wanted to note that I really appreciate the links, watching them now, thanks! Welcome. Spread the ideas, this stuff is important. You might be interested in "market socialism" as well :)

> What to Do Next Demand the end of lobbying in order to restore democracy instead of living under the defacto rule of bog-corps (and their owners).

by cies 9y ago

> What to Do Next Demand the end of lobbying in order to restore democracy instead of living under the defacto rule of bog-corps (and their owners).

hardwaresofton 9y ago

Maybe I'm too synical but that just seems impossible. Also, I don't know of an anywhere-near-ideally functioning democracy in the world (maybe I just haven't read anywhere). Recently I've started to think that democracy is never the steady state of any government, it's just a stepping stone to democratic republics and then to oligarchy. I mean just think about it. who's in the best position to influence the will of a large amount of people? people with the most resources. That's (probably) never going to change -- technological advances are the only things that seem to truly shake things up (as well as revolutions I guess), and even that has been successfully controlled/regulated. The only thing I can see as the future for the internet is mesh networks and a separation of the federated internet and a decentralized one.

RonanTheGrey 9y ago
I can imagine a technology that aggressively defends its own openness, partly based on AI. E.g. any attempt to constrain it causes it to go full-on Chaos Monkey and start breaking things - a technology that enforces liberty on the society using it. Sounds a bit dystopian perhaps but hey, maybe we deserve it.
- hardwaresofton 9y ago
  I think I understand what you meant (trying to detect bad actors through AI), but I don't think you need AI to do it. If it was easy to just buy a 3G radio and start hooking together nodes and create a new internet (with speed being a huge sacrifice), that could easily be the way forward. Bitcoin is a good example that basically raised the stakes for control to >50% of the nodes -- any other quorum system would do the same, but that basically moves the problem to "who has enough money to buy/confiscate lots of nodes". The real solution is something provably and completely decentralized. Maybe we need to go back to the stoneage -- create a new net, and start building the links one by one, person to person, and only use the traditional net as a place to store public keys or something.
cies 9y ago
> I don't know of an anywhere-near-ideally functioning democracy in the world Democracies need to be running at a small scale. Check out the swiss: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSLs5G4SPP4&t=64s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSLs5G4SPP4&t=64s Of read up on "democratic confederalism" (now used in the north of Syria): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqfoJvD0Ifg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqfoJvD0Ifg > I mean just think about it. who's in the best position to influence the will of a large amount of people? With lobbying you do not even have to go by the people, you simply pay-to-play in politics. That's just legalized corruption, thus anti-democratic. > Recently I've started to think that democracy is never the steady state of any government, it's just a stepping stone to democratic republics and then to oligarchy. That's an obvious progression if the democracy is highly centralized and lobbyable (or otherwise corrupt). > technological advances are the only things that seem to truly shake things up Currently tech it largely "bought", and thus used in the advantage of the capital-heavy. Nature and labor are totally subservient to capital in the current system. A well functioning democracy can turn that around, but they seems to be increasingly less functioning.
- hardwaresofton 9y ago
  so basically democracy doesn't scale? I agree with what you pointed out, but maybe I should have noted that I meant for any large-ish nation. Maybe it would be better if I rephrased: I don't think it's possible for a large nation to have a well-functioning democracy for a long period of time. Unless the democracy is damn near (or actually) perfect, someone will eventually get the upper hand, start a pay-to-play system or find a way to slide the scales and you'll get on that same old progression. [EDIT] - wanted to note that I really appreciate the links, watching them now, thanks!
  - cies 9y ago
    > so basically democracy doesn't scale? Doesn't scale "up", but scales "out" well :) > Maybe it would be better if I rephrased: I don't think it's possible for a large nation to have a well-functioning democracy for a long period of time. Unless the democracy is damn near (or actually) perfect, someone will eventually get the upper hand, start a pay-to-play system or find a way to slide the scales and you'll get on that same old progression. Yes. I agree. Democracy should be on low(est) geographical regions. And "perfect" is the enemy of "good enough". Some large nations have (had) quite "ok" democracies (the swiss, some of the scandies, and now maybe some baltics as well -- arguably they are not very big nations though). > [EDIT] - wanted to note that I really appreciate the links, watching them now, thanks! Welcome. Spread the ideas, this stuff is important. You might be interested in "market socialism" as well :)