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Those rare situations stink. I agree. But from my own experience with blind auditions and from the actual data on how they allow, for example, the percentage of

Those rare situations stink. I agree. But from my own experience with blind auditions and from the actual data on how they allow, for example, the percentage of women in symphony orchestras to jump from around 5% to more than 50% in the case of the New York Phil in particular and above at least 35% across the whole industry of orchestral music, I'd say they were resoundingly effective in diversifying professional music. Yes, there are a couple of instances I know of where musicians didn't make it past the probation period. But these instances are extremely rare. The audition to get a job is so difficult, it tends to weed out the un-humble and those whose focus is not mainly the production of great music. They know how to select for top skill and the auditions test for it. Part of that skill is the ability to be flexible, to identify vibe and style of your team, to blend when necessary and to take risks when called upon and above all to be a great collaborator with others of extremely high skill. The process tends to filter out the on-the-job jerks. Not every time, but mostly. And that is what probation review is for. It is for every player and is decided by committee. I think for the rare mistake, such diversity advocacy is well worth the occasional error as opposed to the current system which yields very poor diversity numbers in tech as we are all aware.

austincheney 9y ago
A more common situation are junior developers who are embarrassed by mentoring, and so vocally push back with anger that you would dare violate their ego. This is a bad cultural fit that needs to figure out their place in the universe or get the hell out.
- brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
  Perhaps a blind audition would to for tech what it did for music: there aren't any "junior" orchestral musicians. If a musician makes it through to win the job (no matter their age or time spent as a professional) they don't need any mentoring. Winning a blind audition against 200 highly qualified players who are desperate for paid work and who went to Juilliard too (or the comparable) affords the winner instant respect on the job. It's only the "Michael Phelps" who make it through in orchestral music and everyone knows this. No intelligent musician already employed by that orchestra would ever think they could count on winning another audition in that orchestra or any other. With every passing year, employed players fear having to win their gig again against those who have spent months doing 7 hours of orchestral rep practice and nothing but. It is similar to whiteboarding but allows for no errors in a winning candidate. It is just too competitive. I suspect those who fear a blind audition in tech fear that their main/only real qualification is culture fit. Perhaps they fear they would not win in a skill-based audition. Every player does need to adjust to a new band though. It doesn't take long for a musician at that level. This isn't remotely the same as mentoring. Musicians don't get paid when they need mentoring like swes do. That happens in the practice room and at school and in apprentice programs which the musician pays for.
eric-hu 9y ago
My last comment wasn't about genders of people you hire. One person was male and one female. My point is about team and company dynamics. If someone seems off enough to their potential teawhy take that chance? There are plenty of good candidates out there and the cost of getting rid of a bad employee far exceeds the cost of deleting finding a good one. I don't care about a candidate's gender, race or whatever else. I care how they'd get along with who they work with, which plays a large part in how we'll be productive together, or get in each other's way.
- brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
  Well, there's this data: http://som.yale.edu/news/2017/04/in-new-york-times-prof-jason-dana-argues-that-job-interviews-are-useless http://som.yale.edu/news/2017/04/in-new-york-times-prof-jaso... but it doesn't seem to be reaching the right ears. The thing is that a staggering lack of every kind of diversity persists within the tech sector. It is a much bigger problem than the occasional "wrong hire". There will always be some error... some bad hire that slips through any process as we perfect our hiring systems. The data from this study and the positive and highly effective blind orchstral auditions clearly show that we can still improve our strategies in finding the most skilled professional for the job. Perhaps we also need to work on expanding our notions of culture on the job and working toward becoming better engineers who can work with all types of people who want to produce great work. Perhaps you aren't aware of the closeness with wich orchestral musicians must work with stand partners, section members and the whole team and just how detrimental it can be for one person to have a problem so small as "plays great but moves around too much when playing" or "plays great but is an arrogant jerk during rehearsal creating bad morale"... and the thing is, we know there is probation review. It is an integral part of the hiring process. It isn't considered an error. We accept it as a phase. So why must software teams at companies with lots more wealth than a symphony orchestra expect to get it exactly right with a few wonky culture fit interviews and a relatively small whiteboarding section with the occasional take home project? They can and should find the funds to get serious about diversity in their industry. And frankly, with at-will contracts being the norm, every candidate is always "on probation".
  - 9y ago

austincheney 9y ago

A more common situation are junior developers who are embarrassed by mentoring, and so vocally push back with anger that you would dare violate their ego. This is a bad cultural fit that needs to figure out their place in the universe or get the hell out.

brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
Perhaps a blind audition would to for tech what it did for music: there aren't any "junior" orchestral musicians. If a musician makes it through to win the job (no matter their age or time spent as a professional) they don't need any mentoring. Winning a blind audition against 200 highly qualified players who are desperate for paid work and who went to Juilliard too (or the comparable) affords the winner instant respect on the job. It's only the "Michael Phelps" who make it through in orchestral music and everyone knows this. No intelligent musician already employed by that orchestra would ever think they could count on winning another audition in that orchestra or any other. With every passing year, employed players fear having to win their gig again against those who have spent months doing 7 hours of orchestral rep practice and nothing but. It is similar to whiteboarding but allows for no errors in a winning candidate. It is just too competitive. I suspect those who fear a blind audition in tech fear that their main/only real qualification is culture fit. Perhaps they fear they would not win in a skill-based audition. Every player does need to adjust to a new band though. It doesn't take long for a musician at that level. This isn't remotely the same as mentoring. Musicians don't get paid when they need mentoring like swes do. That happens in the practice room and at school and in apprentice programs which the musician pays for.

eric-hu 9y ago

My last comment wasn't about genders of people you hire. One person was male and one female. My point is about team and company dynamics. If someone seems off enough to their potential teawhy take that chance? There are plenty of good candidates out there and the cost of getting rid of a bad employee far exceeds the cost of deleting finding a good one. I don't care about a candidate's gender, race or whatever else. I care how they'd get along with who they work with, which plays a large part in how we'll be productive together, or get in each other's way.

brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
Well, there's this data: http://som.yale.edu/news/2017/04/in-new-york-times-prof-jason-dana-argues-that-job-interviews-are-useless http://som.yale.edu/news/2017/04/in-new-york-times-prof-jaso... but it doesn't seem to be reaching the right ears. The thing is that a staggering lack of every kind of diversity persists within the tech sector. It is a much bigger problem than the occasional "wrong hire". There will always be some error... some bad hire that slips through any process as we perfect our hiring systems. The data from this study and the positive and highly effective blind orchstral auditions clearly show that we can still improve our strategies in finding the most skilled professional for the job. Perhaps we also need to work on expanding our notions of culture on the job and working toward becoming better engineers who can work with all types of people who want to produce great work. Perhaps you aren't aware of the closeness with wich orchestral musicians must work with stand partners, section members and the whole team and just how detrimental it can be for one person to have a problem so small as "plays great but moves around too much when playing" or "plays great but is an arrogant jerk during rehearsal creating bad morale"... and the thing is, we know there is probation review. It is an integral part of the hiring process. It isn't considered an error. We accept it as a phase. So why must software teams at companies with lots more wealth than a symphony orchestra expect to get it exactly right with a few wonky culture fit interviews and a relatively small whiteboarding section with the occasional take home project? They can and should find the funds to get serious about diversity in their industry. And frankly, with at-will contracts being the norm, every candidate is always "on probation".
- 9y ago