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Do you really think the post boiled down to just "an unproductive politics mudsling"? Although you're free to hold that opinion, I have to say that it does per

Do you really think the post boiled down to just "an unproductive politics mudsling"? Although you're free to hold that opinion, I have to say that it does perplex me. Either it means that you didn't give it a thorough read, or I simply failed in writing it. In my mind, the political component was a rather small part of the overall argument--which I'd hope would be worthy of more discussion. Perhaps I'm a little on the hyperbolic side at times, but I keep thinking that we're doing very little to address a problem that's going to have enormous impacts on all of us. As for the GM/Healthcare discussion, you'll have to forgive me. Being on the northern side of the border, it's hard to understand why so many in America seem so angry about it.

lionhearted 16y ago
> Do you really think the post boiled down to just "an unproductive politics mudsling"? No, but I think the discussion on HN is likely to devolve into that. There's a reason politics articles are more or less banned here. I know it's your own site you're promoting so it makes sense to just submit wherever, but you're talking about politics, economics, egalatarianism, regulation, socialism, healthcare, bailouts, environmental atrocities - this is all crammed into one post. No one who sees your post is going to get convinced one way or another - people who were sympathetic are going to remain sympathetic, people who were hostile are going to remain hostile. That's we try to stay away from politics here.
- karjaluoto 16y ago
  Funny part is that the variety of posts here is what keeps me checking into HN on a daily basis. I started reading HN when we were working on "web startup stuff," but have continued to because it exposes me to novel arguments, thinking, and standpoints that I might not have been exposed to otherwise. The reason that I link to my posts here (and this is one of the very few places I do) is to bring them to another audience (generally designers frequent ideasonideas more than anyone else), and to try and open up new discussions and access varied opinions. If I'm out of line in posting this sort of thing here, please do feel free to say so, and vote it down. That being said, I wouldn't have made note of it, if I didn't think the topic was worthy of exploration and discussion. I will argue your last point, though. The notion that, "people who were sympathetic are going to remain sympathetic, people who were hostile are going to remain hostile." I'm one of those people who would have once taken a completely different standpoint on such an issue. With time, though, as I've been exposed to others thoughts on the topic, it has become harder to hold on to those ideas. It's the fact that people kept "bugging me" with these sorts of discussions that forced me to reconsider my positions. It seems to me that the HN community is one that needs to talk about these sorts of things, just as much as funding, coding, success, and all the rest. These issues are going to become increasingly important in both our lives and careers.
- macrael 16y ago
  Why do you think that is? Why is it so hard to discuss these things in a meaningful way. We all like to think we are reasonable people, that we are open to having our minds changed, and yet it does seem to be impossible to talk about big ideas in any setting other than a dialogue between friends.
  - crystalis 16y ago
    There's a good set of articles available at http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Politics_is_the_Mind-Killer http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Politics_is_the_Mind-Killer on the topic. http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Arguments_as_soldiers http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Arguments_as_soldiers is also often relevant. edit: I don't know if I was downvoted for seeming spammy, but Eliezer's writings actually cover the topic pretty well.
    - karjaluoto 16y ago
      Thanks for the links to the wiki--I'll take a closer look at them on my bus ride home. (This afternoon got a little hectic, and I wasn't able to give them a look yet.)
  - karjaluoto 16y ago
    I don't really know. To me, it's always seemed that the best, and most interesting, discussions are the ones with some "meat" to them. My wife's uncle was a very loud man. He was also well read and intelligent. I didn't agree with him on everything, but greatly enjoyed our discussions (particularly the ones accompanied by good scotch). His sons later recounted a phrase he had used commonly. I paraphrase, but it was something akin to: "Argue with the person across the table as though you love them." I'm butchering the phrasing here, but I believe the sentiment holds. To Terry, a heated debate was a positive thing, and never an attack--no matter how fierce the discussion became. I've always liked that thinking, and believe it's the way we actually learn new things and strengthen our resolve on what we believe.
    - loup-vaillant 16y ago
Mz 16y ago
A little discussion, without the politics: I skimmed it. Such stuff is not my cup of tea, precisely because it is unproductive. It's emotional and it's hyperbole. I don't see you proposing any real solutions or doing anything very analytical or thought provoking. More drama is not likely to be the antidote to existing drama. I believe there are solutions, but they are of the "light one candle rather than curse the darkness" variety. Drama is more immediately emotionally gratifying but doesn't make for an adequate solution. Most folks writing such things want emotional release rather than real solutions and don't seem to know or care that such emotional release typically just adds to the ills of the world rather than making it a better place. Not intended to upset you further, though I realize the odds are good it will. Sigh.
- karjaluoto 16y ago
  Your opinion doesn't upset me at all. I'm glad you've shared it, and it was just the sort of thing I was hoping for: discussion. I'm increasingly cynical given the industry I work within. I work with many people in advertising, marketing, and "selling stuff." The curious part about this industry is that we're more than aware of the dodgy nature that often pervades our industry, and many of us are deeply concerned about it. At our studio (smashLAB), we've taken a few different approaches to addressing such topics. The first was a self-directed project called Design Can Change: www.designcanchange.org. It asked designers to place greater consideration into the creation of new objects so that we could minimize waste before it came into production. Numerous folks have made changes as a result of that project, and we've continued to support it by speaking on the topic and advocating for smarter design and more critical thinking around consumption. This particular piece was "heated," in part because such things sometimes need to be. That being said, it's the first of many new posts, and largely is intended to set the stage for other perspectives, considerations, and more actionable suggestions, to be addressed in future posts. I hope that didn't upset you. Sigh. ;-)
  - Mz 16y ago
    This particular piece was "heated," in part because such things sometimes need to be. From what I have seen, the only need that serves is the emotional gratification of the author and, sometimes, a few of the readers. It doesn't generally foster constructive change. I live without a car. People find that shocking. Most folks assume I am simply "poor". But people in my neighborhood are walking more and the neighborhood itself is healthier, with cleaner air and healthier plants and so on. I live without drugs, in spite of a serious "incurable" medical condition. this is so shocking to people that I get accused of being a liar, charlatan and snake oil salesman. I have found that handling such information quietly and non-confrontationally is the only real hope of getting the word out. People that I argue with about it wind up defensive and even more committed to doing destructive, counter-productive things. In contrast, people who went googling for such information and tripped across my little website in some odd corner of the web are thrilled to pieces. Someday, I will get better at "marketing" myself and figure out how to make money so I can leave my day-job. In the meantime, I continue to keep one small candle burning. It greatly reduces my need to piss and moan and curse the darkness. Peace.

lionhearted 16y ago

> Do you really think the post boiled down to just "an unproductive politics mudsling"? No, but I think the discussion on HN is likely to devolve into that. There's a reason politics articles are more or less banned here. I know it's your own site you're promoting so it makes sense to just submit wherever, but you're talking about politics, economics, egalatarianism, regulation, socialism, healthcare, bailouts, environmental atrocities - this is all crammed into one post. No one who sees your post is going to get convinced one way or another - people who were sympathetic are going to remain sympathetic, people who were hostile are going to remain hostile. That's we try to stay away from politics here.

karjaluoto 16y ago
Funny part is that the variety of posts here is what keeps me checking into HN on a daily basis. I started reading HN when we were working on "web startup stuff," but have continued to because it exposes me to novel arguments, thinking, and standpoints that I might not have been exposed to otherwise. The reason that I link to my posts here (and this is one of the very few places I do) is to bring them to another audience (generally designers frequent ideasonideas more than anyone else), and to try and open up new discussions and access varied opinions. If I'm out of line in posting this sort of thing here, please do feel free to say so, and vote it down. That being said, I wouldn't have made note of it, if I didn't think the topic was worthy of exploration and discussion. I will argue your last point, though. The notion that, "people who were sympathetic are going to remain sympathetic, people who were hostile are going to remain hostile." I'm one of those people who would have once taken a completely different standpoint on such an issue. With time, though, as I've been exposed to others thoughts on the topic, it has become harder to hold on to those ideas. It's the fact that people kept "bugging me" with these sorts of discussions that forced me to reconsider my positions. It seems to me that the HN community is one that needs to talk about these sorts of things, just as much as funding, coding, success, and all the rest. These issues are going to become increasingly important in both our lives and careers.
macrael 16y ago
Why do you think that is? Why is it so hard to discuss these things in a meaningful way. We all like to think we are reasonable people, that we are open to having our minds changed, and yet it does seem to be impossible to talk about big ideas in any setting other than a dialogue between friends.
- crystalis 16y ago
  There's a good set of articles available at http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Politics_is_the_Mind-Killer http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Politics_is_the_Mind-Killer on the topic. http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Arguments_as_soldiers http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Arguments_as_soldiers is also often relevant. edit: I don't know if I was downvoted for seeming spammy, but Eliezer's writings actually cover the topic pretty well.
  - karjaluoto 16y ago
    Thanks for the links to the wiki--I'll take a closer look at them on my bus ride home. (This afternoon got a little hectic, and I wasn't able to give them a look yet.)
- karjaluoto 16y ago
  I don't really know. To me, it's always seemed that the best, and most interesting, discussions are the ones with some "meat" to them. My wife's uncle was a very loud man. He was also well read and intelligent. I didn't agree with him on everything, but greatly enjoyed our discussions (particularly the ones accompanied by good scotch). His sons later recounted a phrase he had used commonly. I paraphrase, but it was something akin to: "Argue with the person across the table as though you love them." I'm butchering the phrasing here, but I believe the sentiment holds. To Terry, a heated debate was a positive thing, and never an attack--no matter how fierce the discussion became. I've always liked that thinking, and believe it's the way we actually learn new things and strengthen our resolve on what we believe.
  - loup-vaillant 16y ago

Mz 16y ago

A little discussion, without the politics: I skimmed it. Such stuff is not my cup of tea, precisely because it is unproductive. It's emotional and it's hyperbole. I don't see you proposing any real solutions or doing anything very analytical or thought provoking. More drama is not likely to be the antidote to existing drama. I believe there are solutions, but they are of the "light one candle rather than curse the darkness" variety. Drama is more immediately emotionally gratifying but doesn't make for an adequate solution. Most folks writing such things want emotional release rather than real solutions and don't seem to know or care that such emotional release typically just adds to the ills of the world rather than making it a better place. Not intended to upset you further, though I realize the odds are good it will. Sigh.

karjaluoto 16y ago
Your opinion doesn't upset me at all. I'm glad you've shared it, and it was just the sort of thing I was hoping for: discussion. I'm increasingly cynical given the industry I work within. I work with many people in advertising, marketing, and "selling stuff." The curious part about this industry is that we're more than aware of the dodgy nature that often pervades our industry, and many of us are deeply concerned about it. At our studio (smashLAB), we've taken a few different approaches to addressing such topics. The first was a self-directed project called Design Can Change: www.designcanchange.org. It asked designers to place greater consideration into the creation of new objects so that we could minimize waste before it came into production. Numerous folks have made changes as a result of that project, and we've continued to support it by speaking on the topic and advocating for smarter design and more critical thinking around consumption. This particular piece was "heated," in part because such things sometimes need to be. That being said, it's the first of many new posts, and largely is intended to set the stage for other perspectives, considerations, and more actionable suggestions, to be addressed in future posts. I hope that didn't upset you. Sigh. ;-)
- Mz 16y ago
  This particular piece was "heated," in part because such things sometimes need to be. From what I have seen, the only need that serves is the emotional gratification of the author and, sometimes, a few of the readers. It doesn't generally foster constructive change. I live without a car. People find that shocking. Most folks assume I am simply "poor". But people in my neighborhood are walking more and the neighborhood itself is healthier, with cleaner air and healthier plants and so on. I live without drugs, in spite of a serious "incurable" medical condition. this is so shocking to people that I get accused of being a liar, charlatan and snake oil salesman. I have found that handling such information quietly and non-confrontationally is the only real hope of getting the word out. People that I argue with about it wind up defensive and even more committed to doing destructive, counter-productive things. In contrast, people who went googling for such information and tripped across my little website in some odd corner of the web are thrilled to pieces. Someday, I will get better at "marketing" myself and figure out how to make money so I can leave my day-job. In the meantime, I continue to keep one small candle burning. It greatly reduces my need to piss and moan and curse the darkness. Peace.