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My impression is that a lot of honor based societies perpetuate themselves at lower levels because they get battered hard by the overarching society / more powe

My impression is that a lot of honor based societies perpetuate themselves at lower levels because they get battered hard by the overarching society / more powerful external powers. People feel that they need to protect themselves and their tribes from being stomped from above. Combatting power inequality and systemic violence/abuse is probably the biggest counter to turf fights, domestic violence, etc., at least on a generational time scale.

kenning 9y ago
Yeah I'd say it's not necessarily a case of honor based systems causing poverty. It's also the other way around. Pretty straightforward. If you make a long essay about how a belief system causes poverty you'll be demonized by the left; the other way around, and you'll be demonized by the right. Say they dovetail, and nobody cares.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  > Say they dovetail, and nobody cares. Seems that in general, feedback loops are too difficult to politicize, and so their understanding is often missing from the public discourse.
cousin_it 9y ago
In the past of any European country you'll see peasants being largely peaceful and the aristocracy following honor culture at its worst. Honor culture doesn't arise in response to oppression, it arises when private violence is unchecked by law. The only counter is rule of law.
- jacobolus 9y ago
  The peasants being peaceful? Where do you get that idea? Alcoholism, domestic violence, theft, fist fights, mob justice, banditry, etc. seem pretty common in peasant society that I have seen. Or you just mean the peasants don't often pick fights with the soldiers, and their violence typically doesn't rise to the scale that would make history books?
  - cousin_it 9y ago
    Honor culture is not an umbrella term for evils like alcoholism, theft, or fist fights. It's a sharper, uglier thing. The central idea of honor culture is that a man must kill anyone who insults him, otherwise he's "not a man" and becomes fair game for everyone. It was much more prevalent with the aristocracy than with common folk, for the reason that I explained in the previous comment. Even today you'll find that honor culture is much more popular with criminals than with law-abiding poorer folk that the criminals prey upon. It's not about how much power your group has, compared to other groups. It's about whether your conflicts within the group are constrained by law.

kenning 9y ago

Yeah I'd say it's not necessarily a case of honor based systems causing poverty. It's also the other way around. Pretty straightforward. If you make a long essay about how a belief system causes poverty you'll be demonized by the left; the other way around, and you'll be demonized by the right. Say they dovetail, and nobody cares.

TeMPOraL 9y ago
> Say they dovetail, and nobody cares. Seems that in general, feedback loops are too difficult to politicize, and so their understanding is often missing from the public discourse.

cousin_it 9y ago

In the past of any European country you'll see peasants being largely peaceful and the aristocracy following honor culture at its worst. Honor culture doesn't arise in response to oppression, it arises when private violence is unchecked by law. The only counter is rule of law.

jacobolus 9y ago
The peasants being peaceful? Where do you get that idea? Alcoholism, domestic violence, theft, fist fights, mob justice, banditry, etc. seem pretty common in peasant society that I have seen. Or you just mean the peasants don't often pick fights with the soldiers, and their violence typically doesn't rise to the scale that would make history books?
- cousin_it 9y ago
  Honor culture is not an umbrella term for evils like alcoholism, theft, or fist fights. It's a sharper, uglier thing. The central idea of honor culture is that a man must kill anyone who insults him, otherwise he's "not a man" and becomes fair game for everyone. It was much more prevalent with the aristocracy than with common folk, for the reason that I explained in the previous comment. Even today you'll find that honor culture is much more popular with criminals than with law-abiding poorer folk that the criminals prey upon. It's not about how much power your group has, compared to other groups. It's about whether your conflicts within the group are constrained by law.