4 ms·

I'd recommend blind auditions, just like the best professional orchestras use to hire "the best players". But they need to be blind from absolute beginning to s

I'd recommend blind auditions, just like the best professional orchestras use to hire "the best players". But they need to be blind from absolute beginning to sign the job offer. This culture fit nonse is nonsensical. If culture means that much in an almost entirely at-will environment- it is straight up discrimination. Have a probation period for the love of Pete! -just like the orchestras do. Why is this so hard for a bunch of really smart so-called scientists?

eric-hu 9y ago
Having worked with people who were eventually fired, I believe there's ample material behind "culture fit". It's stressful working with someone who rubs others the wrong way. Maybe they're borderline sexist, but not enough where you can pin anything on them. Some people in the office will avoid that team or part of the office. Maybe they're borderline reverse-sexist, where you disagreeing with them means you're obviously sexist. That describes two people I've worked with who were fired. It really lowered team and office morale that they were around. I suppose I bonded with my coworkers over our bad experiences, but I think everyone else would've been happier and more productive without these toxic coworkers.
- brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
  Those rare situations stink. I agree. But from my own experience with blind auditions and from the actual data on how they allow, for example, the percentage of women in symphony orchestras to jump from around 5% to more than 50% in the case of the New York Phil in particular and above at least 35% across the whole industry of orchestral music, I'd say they were resoundingly effective in diversifying professional music. Yes, there are a couple of instances I know of where musicians didn't make it past the probation period. But these instances are extremely rare. The audition to get a job is so difficult, it tends to weed out the un-humble and those whose focus is not mainly the production of great music. They know how to select for top skill and the auditions test for it. Part of that skill is the ability to be flexible, to identify vibe and style of your team, to blend when necessary and to take risks when called upon and above all to be a great collaborator with others of extremely high skill. The process tends to filter out the on-the-job jerks. Not every time, but mostly. And that is what probation review is for. It is for every player and is decided by committee. I think for the rare mistake, such diversity advocacy is well worth the occasional error as opposed to the current system which yields very poor diversity numbers in tech as we are all aware.
  - austincheney 9y ago
    A more common situation are junior developers who are embarrassed by mentoring, and so vocally push back with anger that you would dare violate their ego. This is a bad cultural fit that needs to figure out their place in the universe or get the hell out.
    - brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
      Perhaps a blind audition would to for tech what it did for music: there aren't any "junior" orchestral musicians. If a musician makes it through to win the job (no matter their age or time spent as a professional) they don't need any mentoring. Winning a blind audition against 200 highly qualified players who are desperate for paid work and who went to Juilliard too (or the comparable) affords the winner instant respect on the job. It's only the "Michael Phelps" who make it through in orchestral music and everyone knows this. No intelligent musician already employed by that orchestra would ever think they could count on winning another audition in that orchestra or any other. With every passing year, employed players fear having to win their gig again against those who have spent months doing 7 hours of orchestral rep practice and nothing but. It is similar to whiteboarding but allows for no errors in a winning candidate. It is just too competitive. I suspect those who fear a blind audition in tech fear that their main/only real qualification is culture fit. Perhaps they fear they would not win in a skill-based audition. Every player does need to adjust to a new band though. It doesn't take long for a musician at that level. This isn't remotely the same as mentoring. Musicians don't get paid when they need mentoring like swes do. That happens in the practice room and at school and in apprentice programs which the musician pays for.
  - eric-hu 9y ago
    My last comment wasn't about genders of people you hire. One person was male and one female. My point is about team and company dynamics. If someone seems off enough to their potential teawhy take that chance? There are plenty of good candidates out there and the cost of getting rid of a bad employee far exceeds the cost of deleting finding a good one. I don't care about a candidate's gender, race or whatever else. I care how they'd get along with who they work with, which plays a large part in how we'll be productive together, or get in each other's way.

eric-hu 9y ago

Having worked with people who were eventually fired, I believe there's ample material behind "culture fit". It's stressful working with someone who rubs others the wrong way. Maybe they're borderline sexist, but not enough where you can pin anything on them. Some people in the office will avoid that team or part of the office. Maybe they're borderline reverse-sexist, where you disagreeing with them means you're obviously sexist. That describes two people I've worked with who were fired. It really lowered team and office morale that they were around. I suppose I bonded with my coworkers over our bad experiences, but I think everyone else would've been happier and more productive without these toxic coworkers.

brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
Those rare situations stink. I agree. But from my own experience with blind auditions and from the actual data on how they allow, for example, the percentage of women in symphony orchestras to jump from around 5% to more than 50% in the case of the New York Phil in particular and above at least 35% across the whole industry of orchestral music, I'd say they were resoundingly effective in diversifying professional music. Yes, there are a couple of instances I know of where musicians didn't make it past the probation period. But these instances are extremely rare. The audition to get a job is so difficult, it tends to weed out the un-humble and those whose focus is not mainly the production of great music. They know how to select for top skill and the auditions test for it. Part of that skill is the ability to be flexible, to identify vibe and style of your team, to blend when necessary and to take risks when called upon and above all to be a great collaborator with others of extremely high skill. The process tends to filter out the on-the-job jerks. Not every time, but mostly. And that is what probation review is for. It is for every player and is decided by committee. I think for the rare mistake, such diversity advocacy is well worth the occasional error as opposed to the current system which yields very poor diversity numbers in tech as we are all aware.
- austincheney 9y ago
  A more common situation are junior developers who are embarrassed by mentoring, and so vocally push back with anger that you would dare violate their ego. This is a bad cultural fit that needs to figure out their place in the universe or get the hell out.
  - brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
    Perhaps a blind audition would to for tech what it did for music: there aren't any "junior" orchestral musicians. If a musician makes it through to win the job (no matter their age or time spent as a professional) they don't need any mentoring. Winning a blind audition against 200 highly qualified players who are desperate for paid work and who went to Juilliard too (or the comparable) affords the winner instant respect on the job. It's only the "Michael Phelps" who make it through in orchestral music and everyone knows this. No intelligent musician already employed by that orchestra would ever think they could count on winning another audition in that orchestra or any other. With every passing year, employed players fear having to win their gig again against those who have spent months doing 7 hours of orchestral rep practice and nothing but. It is similar to whiteboarding but allows for no errors in a winning candidate. It is just too competitive. I suspect those who fear a blind audition in tech fear that their main/only real qualification is culture fit. Perhaps they fear they would not win in a skill-based audition. Every player does need to adjust to a new band though. It doesn't take long for a musician at that level. This isn't remotely the same as mentoring. Musicians don't get paid when they need mentoring like swes do. That happens in the practice room and at school and in apprentice programs which the musician pays for.
- eric-hu 9y ago
  My last comment wasn't about genders of people you hire. One person was male and one female. My point is about team and company dynamics. If someone seems off enough to their potential teawhy take that chance? There are plenty of good candidates out there and the cost of getting rid of a bad employee far exceeds the cost of deleting finding a good one. I don't care about a candidate's gender, race or whatever else. I care how they'd get along with who they work with, which plays a large part in how we'll be productive together, or get in each other's way.