4 ms·

You are actually not disagreeing with what I said on most points, where we differ is the conclusion. First, no where I mentioned current market cap, let alone

You are actually not disagreeing with what I said on most points, where we differ is the conclusion. First, no where I mentioned current market cap, let alone its link to utility. As an aside, Ethereum and Bitcoin Gold combined mkt cap are slightly half of Bitcoin's, so it's not tiny fractions by any measurement. As you said, one has to make the distinction between current utility and potential utility. You argued that Bitcoin is valuable because it has the most name recognition, and it has the biggest potential utility via Lightning Network. I actually typed up more on how Lightning Network in my previous post, but I deleted it because I don't want to stifle the conversation. But hear me out, other crypto currencies have implemented LN and are beginning to use it. Aside from the fact that it would only give BTC 1.7x transaction counts boost, what other features does LN bring to Bitcoin that other currencies can not achieve? Name recognition again. I haven't even gotten into how long it is taking the Core team to put in a functional LN into Bitcoin. By the time they are done, so would every other cyptocurrencies under the sun.

hackinthebochs 9y ago
>First, no where I mentioned current market cap, let alone its link to utility The only substantive way to read "this was what gave Bitcoin its utility, and thus value" is through its connection to market cap. >other crypto currencies have implemented LN and are beginning to use it No one is near having a functional lightning network. Simply enabling segwit isn't enough. Furthermore, it isn't enough to just have the LN, but it needs to be in widespread usage for its full potential to be reached. Say some low usage alt-coin did enable a fully functional lightning network. It wouldn't matter because there are no scaling concerns for that coin to begin with. It would be functionally no different than doing a transaction with the bare network. The LN is a solution to the kinds of scaling problems only bitcoin is currently having (perhaps Ethereum as well). >Aside from the fact that it would only give BTC 1.7x transaction counts boost LN enables off-chain transactions and so would scale the effective transaction capacity orders of magnitude.
guardiangod 9y ago
>The only substantive way to read "this was what gave Bitcoin its utility, and thus value" is through its connection to market cap. Okay fair enough. What I was going for in using the word "value" was the intrinsic worth of having a free-flowing currency that can be use by anyone. >other crypto currencies have implemented LN and are beginning to use it >No one is near having a functional lightning network...it needs to be in widespread usage for its full potential to be reached. Maybe I am too dumb to understand LN, but what gives BTC an edge over, say Litecoin, if both BTC and Litcoin have LN fully implemented. >LN enables off-chain transactions and so would scale the effective transaction capacity orders of magnitude. I never see anyone ever claim LN will allow +10x transactions. Most claims I read are 1.7x-4x . If you have a source on that I'd really appreciate it (I will read it.) But all these are moot points. While BTC is waiting for LN to be implemented, other solutions (that have their uses) are available today. A bad analogy would be a restaurant owner telling hungry patrons that a new master chef will start next week, and the food will be amazing. Great, but people are hungry now and they will just go to other restaurants (and maybe the other restaurants are almost as good as this one and so the patrons will stop coming to yours.) By the time LN is done, I hope there's enough left of BTC's reputation.
- hackinthebochs 9y ago
  >Maybe I am too dumb to understand LN, but what gives BTC an edge over, say Litecoin, if both BTC and Litcoin have LN fully implemented. You have to understand the end goal of the LN. A future with LN is one with off-chain instant transactions with unlimited throughput. This is enabled by a network of LN hubs where each "edge" is a payment channel. Then sending a payment on the LN is a matter of routing your payment through existing hubs. As long as you already have some locked amount on the LN and there is a route between you and your intended destination, the transaction can happen instantly and immutably off chain. Once you close your connection then the transactions are settled on chain. Essentially an unlimited number LN transactions can occur in between an on-chain settlement. But this requires widespread deployment of LN hubs which only happens if there is enough incentive by sellers to join. If enough of their customers have bitcoin they want to spend, they will join. If some alt-coin has all the tech ready for the LN, but lack the widespread distribution of their tokens to incentivize sellers to join, it won't happen. This is why the idea of bitcoin being a store of value is a necessary step in the mainstreaming of bitcoin for payments: it gives people an incentive to buy and hold it now. A "currency" that only greases the wheels of transactions (i.e. bought for the duration of a tx then immediately sold) is no currency. It has to be worth holding in its own right and "store of value" bitcoin provides that. >I never see anyone ever claim LN will allow +10x transactions. Most claims I read are 1.7x-4x . If you have a source on that I'd really appreciate it (I will read it.) I'm guessing what they mean is that Segwit reduces the signature and thus increases the on chain capacity by 1.7x. People say this in an attempt to cloud the issue of Segwit vs bigger blocks. The LN isn't about stuffing more transactions into each block. >Great, but people are hungry now and they will just go to other restaurants (and maybe the other restaurants are almost as good as this one and so the patrons will stop coming to yours.) But most people aren't hungry now. For most people, paypal and VISA works just fine. They will only switch when the advantages over these legacy systems are great enough. This only happens with the fully deployed LN. For the small number of people that want anonymous transactions now, or need to circumvent the banking infrastructure now, they will use bitcoin or any number of alt-coins. But the value this service provides as it stands just doesn't warrant multi-billion dollar market caps: there simply isn't enough simultaneous transactions (i.e. instantaneous demand) to drive up the cost of the service. >I never see anyone ever claim LN will allow +10x transactions. Most claims I read are 1.7x-4x . If you have a source on that I'd really appreciate it (I will read it.) I don't have any good authoritative sources on hand, but a recent comment I saw on reddit really drives home the value of the LN (warning, its a bit ranty): https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/7fde71/im_switching_to_bch_heres_why_from_an_unbiased/dqboobz/ https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/7fde71/im_switching_to...

hackinthebochs 9y ago

>First, no where I mentioned current market cap, let alone its link to utility The only substantive way to read "this was what gave Bitcoin its utility, and thus value" is through its connection to market cap. >other crypto currencies have implemented LN and are beginning to use it No one is near having a functional lightning network. Simply enabling segwit isn't enough. Furthermore, it isn't enough to just have the LN, but it needs to be in widespread usage for its full potential to be reached. Say some low usage alt-coin did enable a fully functional lightning network. It wouldn't matter because there are no scaling concerns for that coin to begin with. It would be functionally no different than doing a transaction with the bare network. The LN is a solution to the kinds of scaling problems only bitcoin is currently having (perhaps Ethereum as well). >Aside from the fact that it would only give BTC 1.7x transaction counts boost LN enables off-chain transactions and so would scale the effective transaction capacity orders of magnitude.

guardiangod 9y ago

>The only substantive way to read "this was what gave Bitcoin its utility, and thus value" is through its connection to market cap. Okay fair enough. What I was going for in using the word "value" was the intrinsic worth of having a free-flowing currency that can be use by anyone. >other crypto currencies have implemented LN and are beginning to use it >No one is near having a functional lightning network...it needs to be in widespread usage for its full potential to be reached. Maybe I am too dumb to understand LN, but what gives BTC an edge over, say Litecoin, if both BTC and Litcoin have LN fully implemented. >LN enables off-chain transactions and so would scale the effective transaction capacity orders of magnitude. I never see anyone ever claim LN will allow +10x transactions. Most claims I read are 1.7x-4x . If you have a source on that I'd really appreciate it (I will read it.) But all these are moot points. While BTC is waiting for LN to be implemented, other solutions (that have their uses) are available today. A bad analogy would be a restaurant owner telling hungry patrons that a new master chef will start next week, and the food will be amazing. Great, but people are hungry now and they will just go to other restaurants (and maybe the other restaurants are almost as good as this one and so the patrons will stop coming to yours.) By the time LN is done, I hope there's enough left of BTC's reputation.

hackinthebochs 9y ago
>Maybe I am too dumb to understand LN, but what gives BTC an edge over, say Litecoin, if both BTC and Litcoin have LN fully implemented. You have to understand the end goal of the LN. A future with LN is one with off-chain instant transactions with unlimited throughput. This is enabled by a network of LN hubs where each "edge" is a payment channel. Then sending a payment on the LN is a matter of routing your payment through existing hubs. As long as you already have some locked amount on the LN and there is a route between you and your intended destination, the transaction can happen instantly and immutably off chain. Once you close your connection then the transactions are settled on chain. Essentially an unlimited number LN transactions can occur in between an on-chain settlement. But this requires widespread deployment of LN hubs which only happens if there is enough incentive by sellers to join. If enough of their customers have bitcoin they want to spend, they will join. If some alt-coin has all the tech ready for the LN, but lack the widespread distribution of their tokens to incentivize sellers to join, it won't happen. This is why the idea of bitcoin being a store of value is a necessary step in the mainstreaming of bitcoin for payments: it gives people an incentive to buy and hold it now. A "currency" that only greases the wheels of transactions (i.e. bought for the duration of a tx then immediately sold) is no currency. It has to be worth holding in its own right and "store of value" bitcoin provides that. >I never see anyone ever claim LN will allow +10x transactions. Most claims I read are 1.7x-4x . If you have a source on that I'd really appreciate it (I will read it.) I'm guessing what they mean is that Segwit reduces the signature and thus increases the on chain capacity by 1.7x. People say this in an attempt to cloud the issue of Segwit vs bigger blocks. The LN isn't about stuffing more transactions into each block. >Great, but people are hungry now and they will just go to other restaurants (and maybe the other restaurants are almost as good as this one and so the patrons will stop coming to yours.) But most people aren't hungry now. For most people, paypal and VISA works just fine. They will only switch when the advantages over these legacy systems are great enough. This only happens with the fully deployed LN. For the small number of people that want anonymous transactions now, or need to circumvent the banking infrastructure now, they will use bitcoin or any number of alt-coins. But the value this service provides as it stands just doesn't warrant multi-billion dollar market caps: there simply isn't enough simultaneous transactions (i.e. instantaneous demand) to drive up the cost of the service. >I never see anyone ever claim LN will allow +10x transactions. Most claims I read are 1.7x-4x . If you have a source on that I'd really appreciate it (I will read it.) I don't have any good authoritative sources on hand, but a recent comment I saw on reddit really drives home the value of the LN (warning, its a bit ranty): https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/7fde71/im_switching_to_bch_heres_why_from_an_unbiased/dqboobz/ https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/7fde71/im_switching_to...