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As an European, reading things like these never ceases to amuse me, both the salaries that engineers earn and the crazy high cost of living to go with it. In Ge

by Mahn 9y ago

As an European, reading things like these never ceases to amuse me, both the salaries that engineers earn and the crazy high cost of living to go with it. In Germany $120k is the salary of your average successful internet startup CEO and generally speaking an outrageous amount of money, in the Bay Area is about enough to get by, pay rent and save. The disconnect is astounding. And it's not like the quality of life in the Bay Area is ten times greater than in the top cities of Europe either, not to my knowledge anyway.

Kelbit 9y ago
As a Canadian... :(. We get European tech salaries with rapidly-approaching American cost of living. On a median-income vs cost-of-living basis, Vancouver is actually now more expensive than SF and NYC. We lose all of our good talent south of the border on NAFTA visas.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
heedlessly2 9y ago
i feel the same way except i'm an American living in the midwest. I make $70k in the midwest and save $3k/month. That's $3k after taxes, insurance benefits, rent, food, etc.. So I'm surprised the 120k guy isn't putting away more.
- softawre 9y ago
  You're saving more than 50% of your pre-tax money? That is impressive and unusual. I guess from that savings rate and the fact you only make 70k that you are fairly young with no kids? How much do you pay for rent/mortgage?
  - clw8 9y ago
    Not OP but in the Midwest big companies like John Deere start their engineers in the $60k range (at least when I interned there). The cost of living is just that much cheaper. My studio apartment while in college in Iowa City was $500 a month for a location just a five minute walk from the campus.
  - kudokatz 9y ago
    > You're saving more than 50% of your pre-tax money? That is impressive and unusual. Many in the Financial Independence community are upwards of 70%. Having a partner with the same goal can keep that savings rate as high even with kids. Otherwise it's not very likely.
  - whosair 9y ago
    I don't understand... I live in NYC on a $130k income and am having trouble figuring out ways to spend more than 50% of pre-tax. What exactly are people spending on? I'd think it'd be really easy for people in tech companies to save upwards of 70% with high salaries and the performance of tech stocks.
    - jjkk0101 9y ago
      Ex-New Yorker here, I've seen my single co-workers spend all their money with expensive rents, gadgets, social life and traveling.
- austenallred 9y ago
  3k/month on rent
giobox 9y ago
> In Germany $120k is the salary of your average successful internet startup CEO If that CEO salary figure is even close to accurate (I have doubts a successful German tech CEO is taking home just $120k a year), that arguably speaks to how few enormous .com/tech success stories have emerged from Europe (we're not exactly overflowing with Googles, Apples, Facebooks and such), which is arguably a problem in itself in 2017. I don't know when the OP was last working here, but I'd also point out that ~$120k is increasingly a pretty common level of remuneration this area for a reasonable entry-level engineering position, if you are good and make the most of opportunities significantly more than this can be made, worth remembering when looking at cost of living comparisons. > it's not like the quality of life in the Bay Area is ten times greater than in the top cities of Europe either, not to my knowledge anyway. This is clearly a hugely subjective, not to mention anecdotal measure, but having lived in several major European cities as well as the Bay Area for a number of years in each instance, I definitely do have the best quality of life I've had for my family in California, and for me anyway it's been absolutely worthwhile. There are very few cities anywhere that offer the incredible range of activities, nature, jobs and educational establishments etc all within driving distance that the Bay Area offers, which is a huge factor in why so many people are trying to move here.
- barrkel 9y ago
  There are very few cities anywhere that offer the incredible range of activities, nature, jobs and educational establishments etc all within driving distance that the Bay Area offers The primary appeal of California is outdoor activities. If you're not interested in the great outdoors, it's pretty thin gruel, IMO. I far prefer Europe, for the sheer density of diversity in culture, food and way of life.
clw8 9y ago
Germany also has such a big safety net that the only homeless people literally just don't want to change their street lifestyle. It's a trade off. Living in Chicago, which has a large homeless population, I think Germany is doing it right. You have less max earning potential but you also know that your basic human needs will always be paid for and everything you earn goes to a nicer house, nicer food, nicer clothes etc.
barrkel 9y ago
$120k is about what a good experienced generalist developer can make in London. You can up that significantly with domain expertise, or contracting. IMO companies on the continent, outside of places like Switzerland, pay peanuts for developers. And you know what they say: pay peanuts, get monkeys. It's a bit of a head-scratcher if people with talent didn't leave. Could have an impact on that innovation, too.

by Mahn 9y ago

Kelbit 9y ago

As a Canadian... :(. We get European tech salaries with rapidly-approaching American cost of living. On a median-income vs cost-of-living basis, Vancouver is actually now more expensive than SF and NYC. We lose all of our good talent south of the border on NAFTA visas.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

heedlessly2 9y ago

i feel the same way except i'm an American living in the midwest. I make $70k in the midwest and save $3k/month. That's $3k after taxes, insurance benefits, rent, food, etc.. So I'm surprised the 120k guy isn't putting away more.

softawre 9y ago
You're saving more than 50% of your pre-tax money? That is impressive and unusual. I guess from that savings rate and the fact you only make 70k that you are fairly young with no kids? How much do you pay for rent/mortgage?
- clw8 9y ago
  Not OP but in the Midwest big companies like John Deere start their engineers in the $60k range (at least when I interned there). The cost of living is just that much cheaper. My studio apartment while in college in Iowa City was $500 a month for a location just a five minute walk from the campus.
- kudokatz 9y ago
  > You're saving more than 50% of your pre-tax money? That is impressive and unusual. Many in the Financial Independence community are upwards of 70%. Having a partner with the same goal can keep that savings rate as high even with kids. Otherwise it's not very likely.
- whosair 9y ago
  I don't understand... I live in NYC on a $130k income and am having trouble figuring out ways to spend more than 50% of pre-tax. What exactly are people spending on? I'd think it'd be really easy for people in tech companies to save upwards of 70% with high salaries and the performance of tech stocks.
  - jjkk0101 9y ago
    Ex-New Yorker here, I've seen my single co-workers spend all their money with expensive rents, gadgets, social life and traveling.
austenallred 9y ago
3k/month on rent

giobox 9y ago

> In Germany $120k is the salary of your average successful internet startup CEO If that CEO salary figure is even close to accurate (I have doubts a successful German tech CEO is taking home just $120k a year), that arguably speaks to how few enormous .com/tech success stories have emerged from Europe (we're not exactly overflowing with Googles, Apples, Facebooks and such), which is arguably a problem in itself in 2017. I don't know when the OP was last working here, but I'd also point out that ~$120k is increasingly a pretty common level of remuneration this area for a reasonable entry-level engineering position, if you are good and make the most of opportunities significantly more than this can be made, worth remembering when looking at cost of living comparisons. > it's not like the quality of life in the Bay Area is ten times greater than in the top cities of Europe either, not to my knowledge anyway. This is clearly a hugely subjective, not to mention anecdotal measure, but having lived in several major European cities as well as the Bay Area for a number of years in each instance, I definitely do have the best quality of life I've had for my family in California, and for me anyway it's been absolutely worthwhile. There are very few cities anywhere that offer the incredible range of activities, nature, jobs and educational establishments etc all within driving distance that the Bay Area offers, which is a huge factor in why so many people are trying to move here.

barrkel 9y ago
There are very few cities anywhere that offer the incredible range of activities, nature, jobs and educational establishments etc all within driving distance that the Bay Area offers The primary appeal of California is outdoor activities. If you're not interested in the great outdoors, it's pretty thin gruel, IMO. I far prefer Europe, for the sheer density of diversity in culture, food and way of life.

clw8 9y ago

Germany also has such a big safety net that the only homeless people literally just don't want to change their street lifestyle. It's a trade off. Living in Chicago, which has a large homeless population, I think Germany is doing it right. You have less max earning potential but you also know that your basic human needs will always be paid for and everything you earn goes to a nicer house, nicer food, nicer clothes etc.

barrkel 9y ago

$120k is about what a good experienced generalist developer can make in London. You can up that significantly with domain expertise, or contracting. IMO companies on the continent, outside of places like Switzerland, pay peanuts for developers. And you know what they say: pay peanuts, get monkeys. It's a bit of a head-scratcher if people with talent didn't leave. Could have an impact on that innovation, too.