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The author(Shaun) is very reasonable, as are the SJWs who expand on the vid in response to 'secretagentlucario'. But even after that user's efforts to discover

by ygaf 9y ago

The author(Shaun) is very reasonable, as are the SJWs who expand on the vid in response to 'secretagentlucario'. But even after that user's efforts to discover what the problem in problematic is, they fail to make it clear. Everyone ends at "it's worth talking about", everyone denies wanting anything loony like inserting PSAs before videogames that want to use a 30s american animation aesthetic. What is there to talk about? I don't blame gamers for concluding those tweets were an attack on Cuphead; that's what 'problematic' is, an airheaded attack.

chickenfries 9y ago
I can't speak for the people having the discussion, but if I were to put a "game critic" hat on I would say that Cuphead seems to have missed an opportunity to borrow an art style but subvert the racism of the genre, but instead chose to sweet it under the rug. That's a shame, it could've made a great game even greater to smartly acknowledge the fire it was playing with. I agree that "problematic" should be retired because it's lazy shorthand that has gotten out of control. But to "academic" types saying something is "problematic" is really banal: literally everything is problematic, in some way or another to a critic. That's okay though, and it's true of all other forms of art that are criticized and theorized. So I agree that the language and jargon of academia is, well... problematic :) > I don't blame gamers for concluding those tweets were an attack on Cuphead; that's what 'problematic' is, an airheaded attack. I blame the people like the youtuber in at the beginning of Shaun's video, which I think is the point: there are people out there stoking the flames of outrage for profit based on misreading (on purpose or otherwise) of fairly banal things said by academics and critics.
- ygaf 9y ago
  Thanks for the response, I posted to a non-front-page thread knowing you specifically (if no one else) might see it. I would like to know what you mean by subverting the racism / acknowledgeing it, without tinkering with the developer's vision. I believe the video that the plot (which brings with it the dice character) was inspired by racist cartoons, but I don't think the art style alone should have to excuse itself.
  - chickenfries 9y ago
    I don’t think the developer of cuphead should HAVE to do anything. They made a really good game, which I paid for because I loved the art style. And honestly they’ve been very straightforward about saying “yes we were aware that the cartoons were drawing from were very racist but we loved the style so much we wanted to seperate it from the racism.” But once the audience is aware of where the tropes come from it’s hard to look at the games features and not think about where it came from. To borrow a review on cupheads Wikipedia page: > Brandon Orselli of Niche Gamer defended the game as a tribute to that art style, writing that it was not meant to deliver narratives, or "go anywhere beyond where it needs to go in terms of its basic and child-like storytelling" That is a perfectly fine defense of cuphead IMO. But personally I like games that go a little bit beyond “child like storytelling.” I’m having trouble thinking of an a way that the tropes could’ve been subverted or a game that does this really well. But ultimately what it comes down to is that, personally, I think great games go beyond simple stories and simple pastiche of art styles. Copying the style is and creating all of this art is a marvelous technical achievement. But if you just swap out the racist characters for cups and dice, have you not missed an opportunity to also write a story that borrows from the past while also subverting or otherwise questioning its tropes? And I acknowledge that plenty of people will read this and think “who cares, it’s just a game?” And I will admit that if it’s all “just games” then my thoughts will seem pretty irrelevant. That’s okay. But I’m going to keep taking about games as if they were any other form of art, because that’s how I see them.

by ygaf 9y ago

chickenfries 9y ago

I can't speak for the people having the discussion, but if I were to put a "game critic" hat on I would say that Cuphead seems to have missed an opportunity to borrow an art style but subvert the racism of the genre, but instead chose to sweet it under the rug. That's a shame, it could've made a great game even greater to smartly acknowledge the fire it was playing with. I agree that "problematic" should be retired because it's lazy shorthand that has gotten out of control. But to "academic" types saying something is "problematic" is really banal: literally everything is problematic, in some way or another to a critic. That's okay though, and it's true of all other forms of art that are criticized and theorized. So I agree that the language and jargon of academia is, well... problematic :) > I don't blame gamers for concluding those tweets were an attack on Cuphead; that's what 'problematic' is, an airheaded attack. I blame the people like the youtuber in at the beginning of Shaun's video, which I think is the point: there are people out there stoking the flames of outrage for profit based on misreading (on purpose or otherwise) of fairly banal things said by academics and critics.

ygaf 9y ago
Thanks for the response, I posted to a non-front-page thread knowing you specifically (if no one else) might see it. I would like to know what you mean by subverting the racism / acknowledgeing it, without tinkering with the developer's vision. I believe the video that the plot (which brings with it the dice character) was inspired by racist cartoons, but I don't think the art style alone should have to excuse itself.
- chickenfries 9y ago
  I don’t think the developer of cuphead should HAVE to do anything. They made a really good game, which I paid for because I loved the art style. And honestly they’ve been very straightforward about saying “yes we were aware that the cartoons were drawing from were very racist but we loved the style so much we wanted to seperate it from the racism.” But once the audience is aware of where the tropes come from it’s hard to look at the games features and not think about where it came from. To borrow a review on cupheads Wikipedia page: > Brandon Orselli of Niche Gamer defended the game as a tribute to that art style, writing that it was not meant to deliver narratives, or "go anywhere beyond where it needs to go in terms of its basic and child-like storytelling" That is a perfectly fine defense of cuphead IMO. But personally I like games that go a little bit beyond “child like storytelling.” I’m having trouble thinking of an a way that the tropes could’ve been subverted or a game that does this really well. But ultimately what it comes down to is that, personally, I think great games go beyond simple stories and simple pastiche of art styles. Copying the style is and creating all of this art is a marvelous technical achievement. But if you just swap out the racist characters for cups and dice, have you not missed an opportunity to also write a story that borrows from the past while also subverting or otherwise questioning its tropes? And I acknowledge that plenty of people will read this and think “who cares, it’s just a game?” And I will admit that if it’s all “just games” then my thoughts will seem pretty irrelevant. That’s okay. But I’m going to keep taking about games as if they were any other form of art, because that’s how I see them.