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There is an old joke that Wikipedia doesn’t work in theory but it does in reality. In the same way, Church’s don’t make a lot of sense but they’ve worked for th

by Top19 9y ago

There is an old joke that Wikipedia doesn’t work in theory but it does in reality. In the same way, Church’s don’t make a lot of sense but they’ve worked for thousands of years. I kind of think of it as a thing like the family, which also doesn’t make sense in some regards, but it’s proven its “value”. I hate using that argument because you could argue for a lot of stupid things that way, but it’s one way of looking at the situation. Also I noticed you used the word “efficient”. What if meeting people is supposed to be inefficient, what if “efficiency” in meeting people is the worst possible thing to “optimize” for. Sometimes when meeting people is slow, when you’re forced to get along because “oh man this guy goes to the same church and could tell on me if I’m rude and whatever he’s the most interesting person I’ve met so far” you force yourself to discover better understandings and deeper connections with people. Maybe that in the end is what religion is about. EDIT: Also something beautiful about being connected to the humans of thousands of years ago and doing similar rituals as them. The connection to human ancestry, sometimes more so than god, is another beautiful thing about religion. Even among the Chinese, which is not a very theistic society, this is noted in their traditions of ancestor shrines and worship

0xcde4c3db 9y ago
I feel like you didn't answer the main question. What if I recognize the potential value in all of the things you mention, but don't believe in God and don't want to lie to people about it?
- jjeaff 9y ago
  You don't have to lie to people. You can go to church and not believe. I know several people that do that. So, I'm assuming that you also have some qualms about how Facebook or Google does business? Does that mean you refuse to use Facebook or Google? By using commercial services, you are actually supporting them financially. You can go to most any church without donating anything at all.
  - Al-Khwarizmi 9y ago
    > You don't have to lie to people. You can go to church and not believe. I know several people that do that. Interesting. In my (predominantly Catholic) country, people do that for weddings and funerals, it's widely accepted and in fact it would look radical to stay out of a wedding for not believing. But I don't think non-believers going to "regular" mass is a common thing, I think it would be seen as odd and probably not very welcome by the believers. Also, one of the main prayers said in Catholic mass starts with "I believe in God, the Father Almighty". So consciously being in a group that says that looks literally like lying to me, even if it's a white lie.
  - Chathamization 9y ago
    I know of some people who go to church even though they don't believe, and it seems to work for them. For a lot of people, though, that becomes extremely uncomfortable. You say you don't have to lie to people, and maybe that's the case, but I suppose it depends on one's definition of a lie. Given a prayer to a god one doesn't believe in feels dishonest for some, as does nodding along and letting people assume you share their beliefs when you don't. The foundation for church is supposed to be a shared theological belief, so it's not too difficult to understand why some might be uncomfortable joining when they know that they don't share the belief and have to go through certain motions to conceal this fact from their brethren.
  - 0xcde4c3db 9y ago
    It's not really a question of the church's "business". It's that I do not believe in God, and lying to people about something that central to their identity seems like a bad thing to do. I'm skeptical that I'd be accepted in the vast majority of churches as an open nonbeliever without continual attempts to "convert" me [1], particularly in the area where I live. I've heard of churchgoers and even priests/pastors who are atheists, but very few ones who are actually open about it to their congregation. [1] Incidentally, it's not that I'm not open to changing my beliefs, it's that (in my experience) believers are aggressively awful at converting nonbelievers. In many cases they don't even accept that it's possible to be a nonbeliever, immediately falling into "angry at God" tropes.
- QuercusMax 9y ago
  Then go to a Unitarian Universalist church? "Unitarian Universalists believe that each person is free to search for their own personal truth on issues, such as the existence, nature, and meaning of life, deities, creation, and afterlife." -Wikipedia

by Top19 9y ago

0xcde4c3db 9y ago

I feel like you didn't answer the main question. What if I recognize the potential value in all of the things you mention, but don't believe in God and don't want to lie to people about it?

jjeaff 9y ago
You don't have to lie to people. You can go to church and not believe. I know several people that do that. So, I'm assuming that you also have some qualms about how Facebook or Google does business? Does that mean you refuse to use Facebook or Google? By using commercial services, you are actually supporting them financially. You can go to most any church without donating anything at all.
- Al-Khwarizmi 9y ago
  > You don't have to lie to people. You can go to church and not believe. I know several people that do that. Interesting. In my (predominantly Catholic) country, people do that for weddings and funerals, it's widely accepted and in fact it would look radical to stay out of a wedding for not believing. But I don't think non-believers going to "regular" mass is a common thing, I think it would be seen as odd and probably not very welcome by the believers. Also, one of the main prayers said in Catholic mass starts with "I believe in God, the Father Almighty". So consciously being in a group that says that looks literally like lying to me, even if it's a white lie.
- Chathamization 9y ago
  I know of some people who go to church even though they don't believe, and it seems to work for them. For a lot of people, though, that becomes extremely uncomfortable. You say you don't have to lie to people, and maybe that's the case, but I suppose it depends on one's definition of a lie. Given a prayer to a god one doesn't believe in feels dishonest for some, as does nodding along and letting people assume you share their beliefs when you don't. The foundation for church is supposed to be a shared theological belief, so it's not too difficult to understand why some might be uncomfortable joining when they know that they don't share the belief and have to go through certain motions to conceal this fact from their brethren.
- 0xcde4c3db 9y ago
  It's not really a question of the church's "business". It's that I do not believe in God, and lying to people about something that central to their identity seems like a bad thing to do. I'm skeptical that I'd be accepted in the vast majority of churches as an open nonbeliever without continual attempts to "convert" me [1], particularly in the area where I live. I've heard of churchgoers and even priests/pastors who are atheists, but very few ones who are actually open about it to their congregation. [1] Incidentally, it's not that I'm not open to changing my beliefs, it's that (in my experience) believers are aggressively awful at converting nonbelievers. In many cases they don't even accept that it's possible to be a nonbeliever, immediately falling into "angry at God" tropes.
QuercusMax 9y ago
Then go to a Unitarian Universalist church? "Unitarian Universalists believe that each person is free to search for their own personal truth on issues, such as the existence, nature, and meaning of life, deities, creation, and afterlife." -Wikipedia