6 ms·

Speaking as an American, the choice in our society isn't between "voluntarily allow its citizens to be taken advantage of" and not that. It's between allowing g

by Kalium 9y ago

Speaking as an American, the choice in our society isn't between "voluntarily allow its citizens to be taken advantage of" and not that. It's between allowing gambling to be run by organized crime and creating a system that enables at least a modicum of accountability.

orangecat 9y ago
It's between allowing gambling to be run by organized crime and creating a system that enables at least a modicum of accountability. Organized crime would probably a step up from state lotteries.
- umanwizard 9y ago
  State lotteries don’t murder people they have disputes with.
rectang 9y ago
Between organized crime and ruthlessly efficient corporate entities seeking endless growth, though, which ultimately results in more exploitation and human misery?
opportune 9y ago
Disagree. This is probably true among your demographic but it's not true of the biggest whales for casinos: really old people. My grandparents wouldn't break the law to gamble but given the chance would blow hundreds of dollars on slots in a single visit to a casino. And they would go as often as possible because they liked the attention casinos gave them and they had nothing better to do. Sure maybe legal gambling will let young people move from sketchy books to more legitimate operations, but they aren't really the ones that get abused by legalized gambling. Casinos will find a way to exploit old folks with this, I guarantee it. Old people often have about as much going between their ears as ~11-13 year olds but have a lot more disposable income.
- thaumasiotes 9y ago
  Gambling hasn't always been so difficult. It's a practice with a long social history, often including attempts to stamp it out. Out of all of that, my impression is that it is generally not viewed as characteristically a vice of the old. How are things different now? Do you think it's just that if you grow up around legal gambling and you're the type to waste everything you have on it, you won't have any money left to gamble away by the time you're old?
  - Spooky23 9y ago
    Its a nasty addiction that’s been layered with a veneer of legitimacy.
    - thaumasiotes 9y ago
      I'm not trying to discuss whether it's a "nasty addiction" or legitimate or anything else. I'm questioning the view that the victims of legal gambling are primarily old people.
    - junkscience2017 9y ago
      I'm sorry but this really isn't true. This isn't tobacco, where people become addicted and then industry lies about the health implications. Everyone who gambles understands that sometimes you win and sometimes you lose, and if the casino lost more than they won, it wouldn't be a casino at all. No one is told they will always win. True, there is manipulation, but all advertising is based on manipulation, as is most of our media. Why don't we talk about banning alcohol? From deaths to sickness to loss of quality of life, alcohol is the grand-daddy of vice! But coastal liberals love their Pinot Noir, craft beer and boutique small-batch scotch, so instead we talk about limiting the vices of red-staters (guns, gambling, tobacco)
      - Spooky23 9y ago
        It is. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-the-brain-gets-addicted-to-gambling/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-the-brain-get...
Alex3917 9y ago
> It's between allowing gambling to be run by organized crime and creating a system that enables at least a modicum of accountability. The government (via the NCAA) has already made it illegal for college athletes to accept money for anything related to sports. IMHO that ban has worked well for college athletes, and the feds should simply extend the ban to the rest of society and make pro sports illegal.
- sithadmin 9y ago
  >The government (via the NCAA) has already made it illegal for college athletes to accept money What? The NCAA has nothing to do with it. The US federal government independently created regulations that make payment of student athletes undesirable regardless of whether the NCAA even exists. Title XI requires that all collegiate athletes receive identical opportunities and benefits, which clearly doesn't make sense for sports that aren't profit centers if cash compensation is added to the mix. >the feds should simply extend the ban to the rest of society and make pro sports illegal. Why? This clearly doesn't solve a gambling issue, as you can already place bets on NCAA events. And further, it doesn't really make sense given the economic structure and social mores of the contemporary United States. Aside from the fact that a ban on pro sports would fly in the face of centuries of case law prohibiting arbitrary government interference with private enterprises, I'm fairly certain that any representative sample of the contemporary US population would find your proposition both strange and unnecessary.
  - Alex3917 9y ago
    Title IX was only created in the 70s, the government created the NCAA as a self-regulatory organization in the early 1900s so that they wouldn't have to get involved and regulate sports directly themselves. > Aside from the fact that a ban on pro sports would fly in the face of centuries of case law prohibiting arbitrary government interference with private enterprises The new research on health outcomes for pro athletes is more than enough to overcome the requirement for non-arbitrariness. And given how many other strange and unnecessary laws there are, this might not be as serious of an issue as it seems.
- stale2002 9y ago
sandworm101 9y ago
>>> between allowing gambling to be run by organized crime and creating a system that enables at least a modicum of accountability. By that logic nothing should be illegal as making anything illegal simply creates a black market. Some things are bad. Some things are just evil and need to be banned. Laws are meant to prevent people from doing things they otherwise would want to do. Gambling is a classic vice. If people want it banned then they should be able, through government, to ban it. That has happened at the federal level already. Rather than attempt to lawyer their way out from under the ban, states should lobby their people to elect reps that will change the federal law.
- Kalium 9y ago
  It's true - no prohibition is ever perfect. And gambling, along with prostitution and drinking, are the classic vices. You're right on all those points. Gambling is something that already exists a number of places in the US in many forms. Lotteries, casinos, poker games, office betting pools, and more are cultural mainstays. You're not going to be able to get rid of it quickly or easily, nor make it stay gone. People really like their games of chance. Even if I did agree with you that gambling is just evil and needs to be banned.
- junkscience2017 9y ago
  > If people want it banned then they should be able, through government, to ban it If this was put to a national referendum today, no more than 10% of the votes would be to ban gambling. People enjoy it and are overwhelmingly capable of grasping the risks. For those that can't, stay away or phone that number on the sign in the casino that puts you in touch with a gambling addiction counselor. Silicon Valley has such a myopic worldview...Facebook and Twitter are much more harmful to the fabric of society than a one-armed bandit in Vegas.
  - mrguyorama 9y ago
    Facebook and Twitter hit the exact same addictive pleasure center of the brain as that one-armed bandit

by Kalium 9y ago

orangecat 9y ago

It's between allowing gambling to be run by organized crime and creating a system that enables at least a modicum of accountability. Organized crime would probably a step up from state lotteries.

umanwizard 9y ago
State lotteries don’t murder people they have disputes with.

rectang 9y ago

Between organized crime and ruthlessly efficient corporate entities seeking endless growth, though, which ultimately results in more exploitation and human misery?

opportune 9y ago

Disagree. This is probably true among your demographic but it's not true of the biggest whales for casinos: really old people. My grandparents wouldn't break the law to gamble but given the chance would blow hundreds of dollars on slots in a single visit to a casino. And they would go as often as possible because they liked the attention casinos gave them and they had nothing better to do. Sure maybe legal gambling will let young people move from sketchy books to more legitimate operations, but they aren't really the ones that get abused by legalized gambling. Casinos will find a way to exploit old folks with this, I guarantee it. Old people often have about as much going between their ears as ~11-13 year olds but have a lot more disposable income.

thaumasiotes 9y ago
Gambling hasn't always been so difficult. It's a practice with a long social history, often including attempts to stamp it out. Out of all of that, my impression is that it is generally not viewed as characteristically a vice of the old. How are things different now? Do you think it's just that if you grow up around legal gambling and you're the type to waste everything you have on it, you won't have any money left to gamble away by the time you're old?
- Spooky23 9y ago
  Its a nasty addiction that’s been layered with a veneer of legitimacy.
  - thaumasiotes 9y ago
    I'm not trying to discuss whether it's a "nasty addiction" or legitimate or anything else. I'm questioning the view that the victims of legal gambling are primarily old people.
  - junkscience2017 9y ago
    I'm sorry but this really isn't true. This isn't tobacco, where people become addicted and then industry lies about the health implications. Everyone who gambles understands that sometimes you win and sometimes you lose, and if the casino lost more than they won, it wouldn't be a casino at all. No one is told they will always win. True, there is manipulation, but all advertising is based on manipulation, as is most of our media. Why don't we talk about banning alcohol? From deaths to sickness to loss of quality of life, alcohol is the grand-daddy of vice! But coastal liberals love their Pinot Noir, craft beer and boutique small-batch scotch, so instead we talk about limiting the vices of red-staters (guns, gambling, tobacco)
    - Spooky23 9y ago
      It is. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-the-brain-gets-addicted-to-gambling/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-the-brain-get...

Alex3917 9y ago

> It's between allowing gambling to be run by organized crime and creating a system that enables at least a modicum of accountability. The government (via the NCAA) has already made it illegal for college athletes to accept money for anything related to sports. IMHO that ban has worked well for college athletes, and the feds should simply extend the ban to the rest of society and make pro sports illegal.

sithadmin 9y ago
>The government (via the NCAA) has already made it illegal for college athletes to accept money What? The NCAA has nothing to do with it. The US federal government independently created regulations that make payment of student athletes undesirable regardless of whether the NCAA even exists. Title XI requires that all collegiate athletes receive identical opportunities and benefits, which clearly doesn't make sense for sports that aren't profit centers if cash compensation is added to the mix. >the feds should simply extend the ban to the rest of society and make pro sports illegal. Why? This clearly doesn't solve a gambling issue, as you can already place bets on NCAA events. And further, it doesn't really make sense given the economic structure and social mores of the contemporary United States. Aside from the fact that a ban on pro sports would fly in the face of centuries of case law prohibiting arbitrary government interference with private enterprises, I'm fairly certain that any representative sample of the contemporary US population would find your proposition both strange and unnecessary.
- Alex3917 9y ago
  Title IX was only created in the 70s, the government created the NCAA as a self-regulatory organization in the early 1900s so that they wouldn't have to get involved and regulate sports directly themselves. > Aside from the fact that a ban on pro sports would fly in the face of centuries of case law prohibiting arbitrary government interference with private enterprises The new research on health outcomes for pro athletes is more than enough to overcome the requirement for non-arbitrariness. And given how many other strange and unnecessary laws there are, this might not be as serious of an issue as it seems.
stale2002 9y ago

sandworm101 9y ago

>>> between allowing gambling to be run by organized crime and creating a system that enables at least a modicum of accountability. By that logic nothing should be illegal as making anything illegal simply creates a black market. Some things are bad. Some things are just evil and need to be banned. Laws are meant to prevent people from doing things they otherwise would want to do. Gambling is a classic vice. If people want it banned then they should be able, through government, to ban it. That has happened at the federal level already. Rather than attempt to lawyer their way out from under the ban, states should lobby their people to elect reps that will change the federal law.

Kalium 9y ago
It's true - no prohibition is ever perfect. And gambling, along with prostitution and drinking, are the classic vices. You're right on all those points. Gambling is something that already exists a number of places in the US in many forms. Lotteries, casinos, poker games, office betting pools, and more are cultural mainstays. You're not going to be able to get rid of it quickly or easily, nor make it stay gone. People really like their games of chance. Even if I did agree with you that gambling is just evil and needs to be banned.
junkscience2017 9y ago
> If people want it banned then they should be able, through government, to ban it If this was put to a national referendum today, no more than 10% of the votes would be to ban gambling. People enjoy it and are overwhelmingly capable of grasping the risks. For those that can't, stay away or phone that number on the sign in the casino that puts you in touch with a gambling addiction counselor. Silicon Valley has such a myopic worldview...Facebook and Twitter are much more harmful to the fabric of society than a one-armed bandit in Vegas.
- mrguyorama 9y ago
  Facebook and Twitter hit the exact same addictive pleasure center of the brain as that one-armed bandit