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A lot of these moments come from changing norms regarding risk-aversion and willingness to be inconvenienced. For example, the airport-security experience reac

by raldi 9y ago

A lot of these moments come from changing norms regarding risk-aversion and willingness to be inconvenienced. For example, the airport-security experience reached its peak in August 2001 and will never be that good again. The Empire State Building was built in less than 14 months using 1930s technology, but only because of safety standards much more lax than we'd allow today (five construction workers died). In fact, a lot of great buildings could never be built today simply because of zoning restrictions about height and boxiness. Another example is the NY subway system. Construction of the original line began in 1900 and was complete in 1904. A century later, it's taking about ten times as long to build the Second Avenue Subway. But a big part of that is that we used to just rip up the ground and inconvenience everyone nearby with yearlong street closures and dynamite vibrations. That doesn't fly anymore.

mikeash 9y ago
Surely airport security was at its peak before the 70s when they started actually screening things? Before that you just got on the plane. On the topic of subways, I'm always fascinated by the example of Beijing's line 2. It was planned as a circular route approximately following the old city wall. They couldn't afford to bore the tunnel, and had to use cut-and-cover instead. This consists of digging a trench to the desired depth, then covering the top. Of course, this requires destroying whatever is on the surface there. This would have destroyed a lot of people's homes. But a solution was found: rather than approximately following the old city wall, how about exactly following the old city wall, and destroying that instead of people's houses? Nobody lives in it, after all. And thus Beijing's line 2 was born, and the centuries-old historic city wall is no more, aside from a few preserved gatehouses. Imagine trying something like that in a place like New York City.
- mikestew 9y ago
  Surely airport security was at its peak before the 70s when they started actually screening things? Before that you just got on the plane. Until 2001, you essentially just got on the plane. Oh, they made you walk through a metal detector, so take your keys out of your pocket. Other than that, walk right to the gate whether you hold a ticket or not. Don’t tell my wife this, but one of the pluses of increased security is I just dump her at the door now instead of parking he car and navigating the airport concourse just so I can give her a kiss seconds before she walks on the plane. And I don’t have to be waiting at the gate when she comes home. (I know, real sentimental guy I am. She’s fine with it, which is what matters.) OTOH, we did lose the ability to just go to the airport and watch planes take off. Yup, just drive to your local international airport, with no ticket and no money spent otherwise, go through the metal detector, pick a random terminal and watch them come and go. Leave your I. D. at home, no one will want to look at it. I remember having the spouse come to a screeching stop in front of the airport 20 minutes before my flight, carry-on in hand, doing “an O. J.” (re: old commercial w/O. J. running through an airport to catch a plane). Made it, too. They’d scan checked bags and carry-ones, but that was on a separate thread, so one didn’t notice most of the time. In summary, yeah, it was slightly better before the hijackings of the 70s, but not by much IMO.
dogruck 9y ago
I’ve been flying roughly 10 times a year for the past 20 years. I also groan about many of the current show-for-theater mechanisms in airport security. That said, I think the experience will reach new all-time highs in the next 10 years. I predict that it will eventually be like driving down a modern toll road. You’ll just walk through as various robots watch you and scan you. Then you’ll get pulled aside if you raise an alarm.
- killjoywashere 9y ago
  > you’ll get pulled aside if you raise an alarm. And ... Blenderized? Soylent green is people!
nkoren 9y ago
I gave a talk about this recently[1], mentioning the 2nd Avenue subway. Another point of comparison is that here in the UK, the entire National Rail network was effectively planned and built in 22 years. Almost 2 centuries ago. When London's Crosrail 2 comes online next year -- a single rail line -- it will have taken 78 years from start to finish. It's not just safety standards: it's increasing complexity at every level of the project. Project management is an O(n^2) problem, with "O" being every new technical expert, community stakeholder, or regulator involved in the process. Many of whom are there for truly excellent reasons, but nonetheless it means civilisation has gotten a couple orders of magnitude worse at executing large projects, in terms of both time and money. 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-ygQC1oKQE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-ygQC1oKQE

by raldi 9y ago

mikeash 9y ago

Surely airport security was at its peak before the 70s when they started actually screening things? Before that you just got on the plane. On the topic of subways, I'm always fascinated by the example of Beijing's line 2. It was planned as a circular route approximately following the old city wall. They couldn't afford to bore the tunnel, and had to use cut-and-cover instead. This consists of digging a trench to the desired depth, then covering the top. Of course, this requires destroying whatever is on the surface there. This would have destroyed a lot of people's homes. But a solution was found: rather than approximately following the old city wall, how about exactly following the old city wall, and destroying that instead of people's houses? Nobody lives in it, after all. And thus Beijing's line 2 was born, and the centuries-old historic city wall is no more, aside from a few preserved gatehouses. Imagine trying something like that in a place like New York City.

mikestew 9y ago
Surely airport security was at its peak before the 70s when they started actually screening things? Before that you just got on the plane. Until 2001, you essentially just got on the plane. Oh, they made you walk through a metal detector, so take your keys out of your pocket. Other than that, walk right to the gate whether you hold a ticket or not. Don’t tell my wife this, but one of the pluses of increased security is I just dump her at the door now instead of parking he car and navigating the airport concourse just so I can give her a kiss seconds before she walks on the plane. And I don’t have to be waiting at the gate when she comes home. (I know, real sentimental guy I am. She’s fine with it, which is what matters.) OTOH, we did lose the ability to just go to the airport and watch planes take off. Yup, just drive to your local international airport, with no ticket and no money spent otherwise, go through the metal detector, pick a random terminal and watch them come and go. Leave your I. D. at home, no one will want to look at it. I remember having the spouse come to a screeching stop in front of the airport 20 minutes before my flight, carry-on in hand, doing “an O. J.” (re: old commercial w/O. J. running through an airport to catch a plane). Made it, too. They’d scan checked bags and carry-ones, but that was on a separate thread, so one didn’t notice most of the time. In summary, yeah, it was slightly better before the hijackings of the 70s, but not by much IMO.

dogruck 9y ago

I’ve been flying roughly 10 times a year for the past 20 years. I also groan about many of the current show-for-theater mechanisms in airport security. That said, I think the experience will reach new all-time highs in the next 10 years. I predict that it will eventually be like driving down a modern toll road. You’ll just walk through as various robots watch you and scan you. Then you’ll get pulled aside if you raise an alarm.

killjoywashere 9y ago
> you’ll get pulled aside if you raise an alarm. And ... Blenderized? Soylent green is people!

nkoren 9y ago

I gave a talk about this recently[1], mentioning the 2nd Avenue subway. Another point of comparison is that here in the UK, the entire National Rail network was effectively planned and built in 22 years. Almost 2 centuries ago. When London's Crosrail 2 comes online next year -- a single rail line -- it will have taken 78 years from start to finish. It's not just safety standards: it's increasing complexity at every level of the project. Project management is an O(n^2) problem, with "O" being every new technical expert, community stakeholder, or regulator involved in the process. Many of whom are there for truly excellent reasons, but nonetheless it means civilisation has gotten a couple orders of magnitude worse at executing large projects, in terms of both time and money. 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-ygQC1oKQE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-ygQC1oKQE