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>their success in this society will rely on using and stepping on others who will now have less as a result That reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of eco

>their success in this society will rely on using and stepping on others who will now have less as a result That reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of economics. While there are indeed predatory business models where this is true - casinos etc. - most highly successful people and businesses become successful by creating value, not siphoning it from others.

SolaceQuantum 9y ago
Highly successful businesses like Apple, which are closely related to Foxconn and the horrors of labor there. That we know many elements that go into our technology may be sourced from dubious environments, unsafe working conditions, potentially human rights violations and war. That’s what he meant when I asked him. By consuming anything in the system one is contributing to the systems oppression internationally, and there isn’t an easy way to stop.
- downandout 9y ago
  Foxconn and the horrors of labor there Would you prefer that they starve to death because they have no work? I assure you, that's worse than working at Foxconn.
  - SolaceQuantum 9y ago
    So teenagers have to comfort themselves by knowing that they subject people to either starve or dehumanizing living conditions/work that strips people of any sense of self or comfort. This definitely helps with anxiety and depression.
superbrama 9y ago
The adolescent was likely referring to a broader social perspective, not consumer oriented business models. The adolescent here could be observing a short term trend relative to an underlying bigger picture. People are competitive by nature and the modern information age may be amplifying this for them, at least in perception.
lurker456 9y ago
There are limits to such growth. Arguably, the growth of last few centuries has been achieved by burning up finite resources [1]. And even if we'd somehow get an infinite source of energy, at some point we'd run into the heat dissipation limit of the earth. [2] [1] http://www.inscc.utah.edu/~tgarrett/Economics/Physics_of_the_economy.html http://www.inscc.utah.edu/~tgarrett/Economics/Physics_of_the... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_heat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_heat
- downandout 9y ago
  Huh? There are many businesses outside the oil and gas industries that create value.
  - lurker456 9y ago
    Pretty much everything we produce or consume in the modern world is only possible due to the availability of cheap energy. health care, food, TV shows, pencils, clothes, etc.
m_fayer 9y ago
Almost wanted to downvote you for the pedantic tone, decided to comment instead. What you are saying is not at all self-evident or settled. It's true that business models that create value without being predatory are possible, and surely even exist in great numbers, but to say that this is the case most of the time... That's a defensible but very much controversial statement, don't pretend otherwise.
- downandout 9y ago
  I was not trying to be pedantic. In free market societies, most businesses grow by delivering value to their customers. Otherwise, nobody would frequent them and they would die off quickly. Again, there are exceptions to this, such as industries that depend on addiction - alcohol/tobacco/gambling businesses, for example, create value only for their owners at the expense of both their customers and society at large. But it holds true as a general rule that businesses either create value or die.
  - m_fayer 9y ago
    You reacted to the following phrase: > that their success in this society will rely on using and stepping on others who will now have less as a result, if not in their own community then in the international stage. by saying that if the teenager in question properly understood economics they would understand that "most... businesses become successful by creating value, not siphoning it from others" and therefore not hold the opinion in that quote. Your reading of the teenager's statement is, it seems, willfully narrow. It's true that if most businesses simply screwed their customers, they wouldn't survive long, with the exceptions that you mention. But I'm sure that's not what the kid in question meant, teenagers these days are smart cookies. They know that you can treat your customers well while screwing them sneakily (productize their data), screwing their community (use market dominance to force suppliers to lower prices, thereby accelerating offshoring and killing jobs), screwing some other community (locking in cheap resource contracts by bribing weak governments and thus fanning corruption), and the list goes on and on like that.

SolaceQuantum 9y ago

Highly successful businesses like Apple, which are closely related to Foxconn and the horrors of labor there. That we know many elements that go into our technology may be sourced from dubious environments, unsafe working conditions, potentially human rights violations and war. That’s what he meant when I asked him. By consuming anything in the system one is contributing to the systems oppression internationally, and there isn’t an easy way to stop.

downandout 9y ago
Foxconn and the horrors of labor there Would you prefer that they starve to death because they have no work? I assure you, that's worse than working at Foxconn.
- SolaceQuantum 9y ago
  So teenagers have to comfort themselves by knowing that they subject people to either starve or dehumanizing living conditions/work that strips people of any sense of self or comfort. This definitely helps with anxiety and depression.

superbrama 9y ago

The adolescent was likely referring to a broader social perspective, not consumer oriented business models. The adolescent here could be observing a short term trend relative to an underlying bigger picture. People are competitive by nature and the modern information age may be amplifying this for them, at least in perception.

lurker456 9y ago

There are limits to such growth. Arguably, the growth of last few centuries has been achieved by burning up finite resources [1]. And even if we'd somehow get an infinite source of energy, at some point we'd run into the heat dissipation limit of the earth. [2] [1] http://www.inscc.utah.edu/~tgarrett/Economics/Physics_of_the_economy.html http://www.inscc.utah.edu/~tgarrett/Economics/Physics_of_the... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_heat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_heat

downandout 9y ago
Huh? There are many businesses outside the oil and gas industries that create value.
- lurker456 9y ago
  Pretty much everything we produce or consume in the modern world is only possible due to the availability of cheap energy. health care, food, TV shows, pencils, clothes, etc.

m_fayer 9y ago

Almost wanted to downvote you for the pedantic tone, decided to comment instead. What you are saying is not at all self-evident or settled. It's true that business models that create value without being predatory are possible, and surely even exist in great numbers, but to say that this is the case most of the time... That's a defensible but very much controversial statement, don't pretend otherwise.

downandout 9y ago
I was not trying to be pedantic. In free market societies, most businesses grow by delivering value to their customers. Otherwise, nobody would frequent them and they would die off quickly. Again, there are exceptions to this, such as industries that depend on addiction - alcohol/tobacco/gambling businesses, for example, create value only for their owners at the expense of both their customers and society at large. But it holds true as a general rule that businesses either create value or die.
- m_fayer 9y ago
  You reacted to the following phrase: > that their success in this society will rely on using and stepping on others who will now have less as a result, if not in their own community then in the international stage. by saying that if the teenager in question properly understood economics they would understand that "most... businesses become successful by creating value, not siphoning it from others" and therefore not hold the opinion in that quote. Your reading of the teenager's statement is, it seems, willfully narrow. It's true that if most businesses simply screwed their customers, they wouldn't survive long, with the exceptions that you mention. But I'm sure that's not what the kid in question meant, teenagers these days are smart cookies. They know that you can treat your customers well while screwing them sneakily (productize their data), screwing their community (use market dominance to force suppliers to lower prices, thereby accelerating offshoring and killing jobs), screwing some other community (locking in cheap resource contracts by bribing weak governments and thus fanning corruption), and the list goes on and on like that.