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Seems like just a mismatch in organization type. A capital-B Business cares deeply about the bottom line. An organization that primarily wants to "do good" and

Seems like just a mismatch in organization type. A capital-B Business cares deeply about the bottom line. An organization that primarily wants to "do good" and so forth is perhaps a non-profit or charity. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being a non-profit or a charity, but that's certainly not what Etsy is. I get the tension between impacting the world for the better and keeping an ever-increasing number of lights on. It is an interesting tension.

hn_throwaway_99 9y ago
My point is that if you are a capital-B business, but you also have majority control and do not need additional funding, you can make tradeoffs against your bottom line if it fits your values. Outside funders may give lip service to it, but they don't care shit about your values, and honestly I think it would be better if all sides acknowledged this instead of pretending this wasn't the case.
dorchadas 9y ago
Honestly, that's the same kind of issue that Duolingo is running into. They're talking about offering the languages for free, but they're trying to run as a Business and make profit. Now it's led to a marked decrease in quality (which wasn't all that great to begin with) as they rush courses and throw in adds to compete with free competitors.
ryanbrunner 9y ago
I don't think a business is incompatible with the idea of "doing good" at all - Etsy's problem wasn't that it's impossible to "do good" as a business, it's that the founders no longer owned the company completely, and the new owners were more interested in profit than doing good. If they had been a bootstrapped marketplace that never took outside funding, they'd be perfectly capable of continuing to put their mission at the level or even before profits.
- Domenic_S 9y ago
  > I don't think a business is incompatible with the idea of "doing good" at all I totally agree -- I work for a business like this right now, but the business is 100% owned by the cofounders. Toms or Patagonia or any other number of examples abound. The difference between us and Etsy though is Etsy was losing millions of dollars, and took on VC, and continued losing millions. I wouldn't say the investors were "were more interested in profit than doing good," except incidentally. They were/are interested in keeping the ship moving; no entity, not even a charity or non-profit, can run in the red quarter after quarter and still continue to exist. This isn't profit or no profit, this is surviving or folding. Would it be better for the world if Etsy weren't around at all? I don't think so, but I'm pragmatic like that.
Sniffnoy 9y ago
I don't think it's a good thing businesses are pushed towards being either "maximize profits" or "not allowed to make profits at all" (i.e. not actually a business in the usual sense). Like, businesses should be able to "profit-satisfice" if that's what the owners want. Some do; Craigslist basically still does this last I heard. But it sure seems like businesses get pushed away from that, doesn't it? I guess a lot of that is what hn_throwaway_99 said -- don't take VC funding if you want to be able to do that! Or more generally, as little outside funding as you can get away with. Just have to keep it as yours as possible... Edit: See also sibling comment, hn_throwaway_99 also said it well.

hn_throwaway_99 9y ago

My point is that if you are a capital-B business, but you also have majority control and do not need additional funding, you can make tradeoffs against your bottom line if it fits your values. Outside funders may give lip service to it, but they don't care shit about your values, and honestly I think it would be better if all sides acknowledged this instead of pretending this wasn't the case.

dorchadas 9y ago

Honestly, that's the same kind of issue that Duolingo is running into. They're talking about offering the languages for free, but they're trying to run as a Business and make profit. Now it's led to a marked decrease in quality (which wasn't all that great to begin with) as they rush courses and throw in adds to compete with free competitors.

ryanbrunner 9y ago

I don't think a business is incompatible with the idea of "doing good" at all - Etsy's problem wasn't that it's impossible to "do good" as a business, it's that the founders no longer owned the company completely, and the new owners were more interested in profit than doing good. If they had been a bootstrapped marketplace that never took outside funding, they'd be perfectly capable of continuing to put their mission at the level or even before profits.

Domenic_S 9y ago
> I don't think a business is incompatible with the idea of "doing good" at all I totally agree -- I work for a business like this right now, but the business is 100% owned by the cofounders. Toms or Patagonia or any other number of examples abound. The difference between us and Etsy though is Etsy was losing millions of dollars, and took on VC, and continued losing millions. I wouldn't say the investors were "were more interested in profit than doing good," except incidentally. They were/are interested in keeping the ship moving; no entity, not even a charity or non-profit, can run in the red quarter after quarter and still continue to exist. This isn't profit or no profit, this is surviving or folding. Would it be better for the world if Etsy weren't around at all? I don't think so, but I'm pragmatic like that.

Sniffnoy 9y ago

I don't think it's a good thing businesses are pushed towards being either "maximize profits" or "not allowed to make profits at all" (i.e. not actually a business in the usual sense). Like, businesses should be able to "profit-satisfice" if that's what the owners want. Some do; Craigslist basically still does this last I heard. But it sure seems like businesses get pushed away from that, doesn't it? I guess a lot of that is what hn_throwaway_99 said -- don't take VC funding if you want to be able to do that! Or more generally, as little outside funding as you can get away with. Just have to keep it as yours as possible... Edit: See also sibling comment, hn_throwaway_99 also said it well.