8 ms·
Fantastic precedent. When your boss tells you to do something unethical and possibly illegal, you now have a great reason to say no.
by skrebbel 9y ago
Fantastic precedent. When your boss tells you to do something unethical and possibly illegal, you now have a great reason to say no.
- baddox 9y agoIs it a good enough reason though? That would depend on the likelihood of losing your job by refusing, the ease of finding a different job, the seriousness of the unethical request, and the likelihood of getting caught.
- mseebach 9y agoWhat's good enough is always going to be an individual decision, but it's better to be able to reference a concrete expectation of jail time.
- baddox 9y agoThat’s certainly true. Deterrence is one of the classic justifications for punishment (and for crimes like this that don’t involve direct violence or specific victims, it’s perhaps the best or most significant justification). But still, the strength of the deterrence is related not just to the specific punishment, but also the likelihood of being caught. I don’t have any data to back this up, but my intuition is that crimes like this of this magnitude are very difficult and thus unlikely to discover and successfully prosecute, especially down to the level of specific engineers. My guess is that this whole situation will provide some deterrence at the large corporation level, but probably not much deterrence at the individual engineer level.
- jogundas 9y agoIt is not the expectation of jail time, but certainty of a punishment is what matters. See https://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2016/03/criminal-justice https://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2016/03/crimina... and references therein for actual research.
- w_t_payne 9y agoExtracting the maximum value from their employees is a core competence of most automotive companies. With no union to protect them, naive low ranking software engineers are exceedingly vulnerable to aggression and abuse from their line manager, It is hardly surprising that the resulting culture is one which rewards dishonesty and fraud above all else.
- Tomte 9y agoIn Germany the automotive industry is basically the last bastion of high union membership.
- wffurr 9y agoWhen asked why you were fired, being able to say "I was asked to do something illegal or unethical" is a strong response. That certainly helps with the "find a new job" part.
- gech 9y agoI could easily see the interviewer twist this to ask the next question "But does that mean you won't be loyal to us??"
- GolDDranks 9y agoOn the other hand, you could always respond by saying: I expect not to be asked to do something illegal; I have no interest in working for such a company. However, I have high expectations of you, and that's why I believe I can be fully loyal to you.
- afarrell 9y agoCould? sure. Should you expect it? If so, then the industry you work in is systemically corrupt. I and a co-interviewer recently voted "strong yes" for a candidate partly on the basis of hearing that he took a hard line against giving his CEO access to the text of conversations on a messaging platform.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- geofft 9y ago"I am absolutely going to be loyal to Corpco and its best interests. If I am so much as arrested for my work, regardless of how the trial goes, I can't work for Corpco. If I do something that causes an investigation into Corpco, I will be hurting the company. I left Donoevil because I saw that if I stayed, it would be bad for the company, and I didn't want to be part of that - I wouldn't be showing the loyalty I promised the company. I'm proud of my decision and I wish all the best success to Donoevil."
- TimPC 9y agoThe problem is that this question often goes unasked so you don't get to answer it you just get evaluated on the perception of this concern.
- ImSkeptical 9y agoDon't say "No" then, but agree and report to the authorities.
- CGamesPlay 9y agoBut that would increase the likelihood of losing your job by refusing and decrease the ease of finding a different job?
- rjzzleep 9y agoYes, it would, but there is a working and rather simple(email) alternative: > "Dear <Supervisor>, > I hereby bring to your attention that _xyz_ will have the following consequences. > My suggestion is that you do _zyw_. > Please notify me how you want to procede." If he decides to continue doing what he's asking you to do it anyway. He's now the one liable. I'd advise you to print that email and the response and store it in a folder at home or at your lawyer, bank, whatever. If they at some point decide to fire you or throw you to the wolves you can be certain that you won't have access to your emails anymore. It might feel awkward the first couple of times, but afterwards you might end up with a cozy life.
- EpicEng 9y agoLosing your job either way in all likelihood.
- Dolores12 9y agoKeep evidence to cover your back just in case
- jeffdavis 9y agoEvidence of what? Your crime? Or that someone told you to commit a crime, and you did?
- greymeister 9y agoIf losing your job over something unethical is wrong, I don't want to be right. I would never be able to trust my employer again either way.
- paulcole 9y agoMillions of people in the US alone don’t have the privilege to be that principled.
- jnordwick 9y agoSo? It sucks to be in such a bind, but nothing says life is always easy or fair. The best you can do is to do the right thing and hope things are better at the next firm.
- paulcole 9y agoWhen the option is do something unethical for work or run out of money and be unable to pay rent, pay for kids’ food, medicine, etc., I wouldn’t think twice about doing what my boss asked.
- greymeister 9y agoThe Milgram experiment[0] indicates you'd be willing to do it whether you were desperate or not if you see your employer as an authority figure. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment#Results https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment#Results
- tnzn 9y agoThe Milgram experiment can't really apply to random people you know nothing about in random situations you've barely described though.
- greymeister 9y ago
- Ardren 9y ago... and go find a new job
- DennisP 9y agoWhich is fine, if you have decent skills and some money put aside.
- thriftwy 9y agoIn Germany? I bet they will eat their hat before actually firing you in this case.
- DonHopkins 9y agoUnless it's a Pickelhaube.
- hanbura 9y agoThat depends highly on the local employment laws. In Germany being fired for refusing illegal or unethical tasks screams for unlawful termination. That means a court case, which means the unethical request will become public knowledge. That's a huge thread even if the employer wins in court. Here your job would be safe, though you could be put in some dead-end position where you eventually leave on your own. Or you are offered a good deal for leaving quietly.
- bald 9y ago+ suits in a court for employment-related matters (Arbeitsgericht) are free for the employee in Germany
- briandear 9y agoAnd one would think the Germans would have learned that lesson.
- eitland 9y agoFor anyone wondering I guess briandear is referring to "The Nuremberg defence" aka "only following orders": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders
- madez 9y agoThis has nothing to do with nationality. Everywhere and up to this day people excuse themselves that they are just doing what they were told/forced to. Snowden is sadly the rare exception, rather than the rule.
- marenkay 9y agoVolkswagen is actually a prime example of German corporate culture. At least in stock listed companies in Germany this seems to be common, since Germany lacks in laws that would execute an appropriate punishment.
- jacquesm 9y agoGermans in general, this example notwithstanding, have learned that lesson, it's the rest of the world that still needs to learn it as well as they did.
- catshirt 9y agoyea, but we're not talking about the rest of the world in this thread, are we? also seems a little misguided to defend to a generalization with another generalization. no? lighten up guys. it was kind of funny.
- webreac 9y agoIt is likely he will earn a good amount of money for having accepted to be the scape goat instead of VW.
- DonHopkins 9y agoAnd free smokes in jail!
- skrebbel 9y agoSure, but that doesn't change anything about the argument you now have to say "no".
- conanbatt 9y agoWe should increase the punishment on all people surrounding criminals to achieve the same purpose.
- yhbgffvv 9y ago> Fantastic precedent. That engineers will be thrown in jail while CEOs will walk away scot-free? Yeah. Fantastic.
- Animats 9y agoRight. This is after he cooperated with authorities. It's the ones who didn't cooperate who should be going to jail.
- skrebbel 9y agoFantastic indeed. For decades us engineers have been blaming the bosses for the unethical shit we pull. Fuck that shit. Be civilized for a change. Don't make evil tech.
- MisterBastahrd 9y agoSure, but you'll get fired anyway with no legal recourse. At least in most of the US.
- coldtea 9y agoYeah, fantastic /s So every boss now knows that as long as they can find somebody in lower place to agree to do something unethical, they will face no repercussions themselves!
- zamber 9y agoSeriously I doubt they didn't knew that already.