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> I am extremely happy with the butterfly keyboard Agree. So much so, that I ordered the new Magic Keyboard for desktop use (which uses similar switches) to r

> I am extremely happy with the butterfly keyboard Agree. So much so, that I ordered the new Magic Keyboard for desktop use (which uses similar switches) to replace the previous-generation Apple Wireless Keyboard. The new MacBook Pro keyboard is the best I've ever used. My fingers feel like they're flying over the keys. And I've owned all sorts of mechanical keyboards, ThinkPads, and odd devices like the DataHand. I really don't understand all the hate for the new keyboard. Or USB-C. Or the Touch Bar.

mistersquid 9y ago
I'm here to third this assessment. The feel of the butterfly switch is so much better for long bouts of coding/typing and, in my particular case, improved accuracy. I think the issue is that the scissors switch encourages typing using the tips of the fingers (deeper key travel) whereas the butterfly keys encourage using the pads of the fingers which reduces exertion and fatigue. My understanding is that the failure rate for the butterfly keys is "significant [...] but 'less than 5% for sure.'" [0] Marco Ament (thread OP) and John Gruber (Daring Fireball) are proponents of keyboards that take more effort to use, Gruber's favorite keyboard being the Apple Extended Keyboard II. [1][2] Some aficionados' opinions about keyboards reach heights usually reserved for out-of-production American muscle-car transmissions. [3] Reading the tenor of some descriptions of the action of these old-timey keyboards, e.g. > tank but with a more metallic, punchy feel, and an audible note to its > astoundingly loud typing sound, [3] one can practically feel the adoration of these self-identified keyboard nerds for a particular type of vintage keyboard. I personally prefer subtlety and finesse when I interaction with peripheral devices, so I welcome the move toward shallower key travel. YMMV [0] https://theoutline.com/post/2402/the-new-macbook-keyboard-is-ruining-my-life [1] https://daringfireball.net/linked/2012/04/16/my-favorite-keyboard [2] https://www.flickr.com/photos/gruber/sets/72157604797968156/ [3] http://www.penmachine.com/2008/04/keyboard-nerdery-apple-extended EDIT: spelling, punctuation, capitalization, modify adverbial phrase, add adjective.
- Terretta 9y ago
  Could be whether you learned to type on a typewriter or IBM model M keyboard versus something considerably more recent.
pfg 9y ago
It's a great keyboard! Except for the reliability. Even small bits of dust or other dirt can easily prevent a key from working, and if you're not able to clean it from the outside, you're SOL and need a $400 keyboard replacement because individual keys cannot be removed without breaking them (unlike previous generations).
- dsego 9y ago
  They can be removed, but with the hooks and clamps you need to be careful and know the right technique.
  - wyufro 9y ago
    They’re glued and can’t be placed back if taken. There’s no hooks or clamps, I think you’re thinking of the older keyboards. I know this firsthand as I’ve removed one key. It’s now lose on the keyboard but mostly works anyway. Still, I have no love for this keyboard, 4-5 keys are semi stuck and have been for some time.
    - dsego 9y ago
      Ooops, I meant the keycaps.
kylec 9y ago
> I ordered the new Magic Keyboard for desktop use (which uses similar switches) Actually, the Magic Keyboard uses scissor switches. I don't blame you for not noticing, but it does demonstrate that Apple can make scissor switches that appeal to butterfly switch fans. In the article Marco suggests that Apple replace the problematic butterfly switch keyboard on the MacBook Pro with the keyboard from the Magic Keyboard. Since you like the Magic Keyboard, I assume this would be fine with you?
- brandonmenc 9y ago
  > Actually, the Magic Keyboard uses scissor switches. "similar switches" was a bad phrase to use in my original comment > I don't blame you for not noticing I did notice. In fact, I hesitated to buy the current Magic Keyboard, hoping that they'd refresh it with the exact feel of the laptops. The key travel is about halfway between the old wireless keyboard and the new MacBook Pros. Better, but not perfect. > Since you like the Magic Keyboard, I assume this would be fine with you? I greatly prefer the butterfly switches, yet acknowledge that the Magic Keyboard is an improvement over the old wireless keyboard.

mistersquid 9y ago

I'm here to third this assessment. The feel of the butterfly switch is so much better for long bouts of coding/typing and, in my particular case, improved accuracy. I think the issue is that the scissors switch encourages typing using the tips of the fingers (deeper key travel) whereas the butterfly keys encourage using the pads of the fingers which reduces exertion and fatigue. My understanding is that the failure rate for the butterfly keys is "significant [...] but 'less than 5% for sure.'" [0] Marco Ament (thread OP) and John Gruber (Daring Fireball) are proponents of keyboards that take more effort to use, Gruber's favorite keyboard being the Apple Extended Keyboard II. [1][2] Some aficionados' opinions about keyboards reach heights usually reserved for out-of-production American muscle-car transmissions. [3] Reading the tenor of some descriptions of the action of these old-timey keyboards, e.g. > tank but with a more metallic, punchy feel, and an audible note to its > astoundingly loud typing sound, [3] one can practically feel the adoration of these self-identified keyboard nerds for a particular type of vintage keyboard. I personally prefer subtlety and finesse when I interaction with peripheral devices, so I welcome the move toward shallower key travel. YMMV [0] https://theoutline.com/post/2402/the-new-macbook-keyboard-is-ruining-my-life [1] https://daringfireball.net/linked/2012/04/16/my-favorite-keyboard [2] https://www.flickr.com/photos/gruber/sets/72157604797968156/ [3] http://www.penmachine.com/2008/04/keyboard-nerdery-apple-extended EDIT: spelling, punctuation, capitalization, modify adverbial phrase, add adjective.

Terretta 9y ago
Could be whether you learned to type on a typewriter or IBM model M keyboard versus something considerably more recent.

pfg 9y ago

It's a great keyboard! Except for the reliability. Even small bits of dust or other dirt can easily prevent a key from working, and if you're not able to clean it from the outside, you're SOL and need a $400 keyboard replacement because individual keys cannot be removed without breaking them (unlike previous generations).

dsego 9y ago
They can be removed, but with the hooks and clamps you need to be careful and know the right technique.
- wyufro 9y ago
  They’re glued and can’t be placed back if taken. There’s no hooks or clamps, I think you’re thinking of the older keyboards. I know this firsthand as I’ve removed one key. It’s now lose on the keyboard but mostly works anyway. Still, I have no love for this keyboard, 4-5 keys are semi stuck and have been for some time.
  - dsego 9y ago
    Ooops, I meant the keycaps.

kylec 9y ago

> I ordered the new Magic Keyboard for desktop use (which uses similar switches) Actually, the Magic Keyboard uses scissor switches. I don't blame you for not noticing, but it does demonstrate that Apple can make scissor switches that appeal to butterfly switch fans. In the article Marco suggests that Apple replace the problematic butterfly switch keyboard on the MacBook Pro with the keyboard from the Magic Keyboard. Since you like the Magic Keyboard, I assume this would be fine with you?

brandonmenc 9y ago
> Actually, the Magic Keyboard uses scissor switches. "similar switches" was a bad phrase to use in my original comment > I don't blame you for not noticing I did notice. In fact, I hesitated to buy the current Magic Keyboard, hoping that they'd refresh it with the exact feel of the laptops. The key travel is about halfway between the old wireless keyboard and the new MacBook Pros. Better, but not perfect. > Since you like the Magic Keyboard, I assume this would be fine with you? I greatly prefer the butterfly switches, yet acknowledge that the Magic Keyboard is an improvement over the old wireless keyboard.