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> it's just supporting people who aren't shitting on everyone's future. If all dairy cows were treated exactly the same as the cows you're getting milk from, w
by nilkn 9y ago
> it's just supporting people who aren't shitting on everyone's future.
If all dairy cows were treated exactly the same as the cows you're getting milk from, would milk be sufficiently plentiful and affordable for everyone to be able to get milk?
If you really want something that's better for cows and the environment, why not just drink soy milk (or any of a pretty big variety of milk that doesn't come from cows)?
- shiven 9y agoAnd what happens to cows, as a species, a few decades from now?
- nilkn 9y agoI don't fully understand what you're asking. Could you clarify? Are you suggesting they might go extinct? Or something else?
- reificator 9y agoNot the above poster, but relevant SMBC: https://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=3105 https://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=3105
- j1elo 9y agoI can see how that mom in the comic would be a supporter of bullfighting - they tend to use similar justifications around the idea that, if it wasn't because the bull was raised and taken care (to ultimatelly be killed in the sports), it wouldn't have existed at all. I say that's BS, if you ask me.
- shiven 9y agoThere is more than one question I am asking - (1). Is there any scientifically sound study proving that the quality of protein from plant sources is equivalent to or better than from dairy products? (2). Is there any reproducible, quantitative data on leaving milk producing cows to fend for themselves vs caring for them in small -to- mid size "cow caring" setups (farms, one-cow ops etc.)? I ask this because both my maternal and paternal grandparents had 1 to 3 milk producing cows at any given point in time - from what I recall, they were well cared for (food, medicine, weather etc.) (3). If we, as a species, were to stop consuming dairy products today, or cut consumption by, say 90% over the next year, what would become of the current cow population? How is that better than the current situation for the animals? I am personally, utterly and deeply biased towards the survive-and-let-survive school of life --- so take what I say colored by my very, very, un-apologetically biased PoV.
- Lon7 9y agoIf you are interested in these questions I think it will be worth it to spend some time and do a bit of research, no? You can look up Peter Singer and Yuval Noah Harari to start with and read what they have written about this. I mention them because they write well and mainly stick to scientifically supported ideas. I haven't decided where I stand on the issues yet, but with a little research it has become apparent that you can have a very healthy diet without any protein form animals. I've also discovered that more and more philosophers, ethicists, biologists etc, are starting to make the argument that our factory farming of animals may be the the worst crime in human history.
- shiven 9y agoThanks for the pointers on where to start looking. This is helpful. The modern “factory farming” is not something I care to defend for any intent or purpose. It may as well disappear tomorrow, as far as I am concerned. However, I still see no argument against deeply caring domestication of a small number/herd of animals, providing them food, shelter and care in exchange for milk or unfertilized eggs. Can’t seem to find a convincing argument against that in my current ethics framework.
- ezequiel-garzon 9y agoCows as a species are probably as safe as humans. Plenty other cases to worry about, assuming it’s feasible to fight extinction on a per-species basis.
- hashkb 9y agoIs everyone supposed to be able to buy gallons of milk and pounds of meat with the money they ear from less than a day's work? What's right? Who decides?
- nilkn 9y agoI don't see how it's controversial to say that we should strive for a world and economy where people can easily afford healthy food for themselves. I already suggested that the best route is probably to avoid cows altogether for this, and I didn't say anything about pounds of meat.
- earlyriser 9y agoI have the feeling that this is controversial because it plays with guilt feelings and people, in general, don't want to be the bad guys and rationalize bad decisions polarizing the opposite field. This is reflected in the vegan cliché.
- kaybe 9y agoIt might go deeper. Many societies are not that far away from hunger and poverty in the past. I can see memories of hunger and war in our collective behaviour and also shaping my family, and wealth including being able to afford to eat whatever whenever cushions that a bit. In Europe, the grandparent generation that grew up with the war and the following hunger years is still alive.