4 ms·

What would the buyer do with the painting? Is this for investment purposes, in which case, how would they sell this in the future? Surely the legality issues w

What would the buyer do with the painting? Is this for investment purposes, in which case, how would they sell this in the future? Surely the legality issues would reduce the pool of potential customers, and the overall resale value. Or are there people who will buy such a painting for their own personal enjoyment? (I guess just because I don't see the value, doesn't mean there aren't people with vast amounts of disposable income who will buy things like this on a whim.)

gtsteve 9y ago
I could imagine an astonishingly wealthy person finding they no longer get any enjoyment from buying regular things taking delight in owning a stolen original. Nobody else has that. If that hypothetical person happens to live in a country where extradition to New Zealand would be impossible, or they have appropriate connections, it might be seen as an acceptable risk. And perhaps in a few generations, the heirs of that wealthy person could sell it on. I don't really know how it works if you discover you've inherited property that was stolen a hundred years ago for example. At what point does it become yours?
- microcolonel 9y ago
  > At what point does it become yours? At no point does it become yours. I'm pretty sure that, while you can't necessarily prosecute the person currently in possession, you could almost certainly recover the property if you could prove it was stolen from your estate. Added: In most English speaking countries it becomes a crime to willfully possess stolen property as soon as you know that it is stolen. In general, the lack of mens rea in merely possessing stolen goods would make it enough to repatriate the goods, but if that's not enough, most statutes on the matter explicitly state that you must know and wish to unlawfully handle the stolen property.
  - LyndsySimon 9y ago
    I wonder if it being an international theft would impact the true owner's ability to recover the work, even if they knew who possessed it?
    - microcolonel 9y ago
      I think most civilized countries would recognize a theft committed in another country as rendering the property stolen property, unless they had some important relationship with the criminal or their heirs. Some countries might be easier to pay off, though (but as a result, also more dangerous places to store valuable goods).
  - QAPereo 9y ago
    Receiving stolen property is a crime. Edit: or not in this case, my bad.
    - microcolonel 9y ago
      At least in England, Wales, Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland, the United States of America, and Canada, knowing that the property was stolen or otherwise obtained by crime is an essential element of the crime.
      - QAPereo 9y ago
        If this person is buying art from the unlisted web, if they're not going to be able to prove provenance... what do you think they're going to be able to say? "Oh gee, I knew it was stolen when I went to the "dark web" to buy it, and it's a well-known stolen piece, but I had no idea that I was receiving stolen property!" It's not like buying something from e-bay, and it turns out the seller boosted it from a van; that is not your fault.
        microcolonel 9y ago
        > If this person is buying art from the unlisted web, if they're not going to be able to prove provenance. I think you may have lost track of the thread here. I was addressing this question posed by gtsteve. > And perhaps in a few generations, the heirs of that wealthy person could sell it on. I don't really know how it works if you discover you've inherited property that was stolen a hundred years ago for example. At what point does it become yours? It is obviously unlawful to traffick knowingly in stolen goods. It is as serious a crime as the theft itself (sans aggravating factors like use of force or intimidation, especially with a deadly weapon).
        QAPereo 9y ago
        I did indeed lose track, thanks for pointing that out so gently.
mustacheemperor 9y ago
I imagine the perpetrators may also be hoping someone will buy it philanthropically, to return it to the original gallery.
- paulie_a 9y ago
  There was a thief that would do that fairly routinely. If I recall correctly it was covered in "the art of the heist"
at-fates-hands 9y ago
Two things really. Through my travels, I've met some insanely wealthy people (most were borderline billionaires, some were actual billionaires) and I've been told once you reach a certain income level, having something that is rare or something nobody else has is their way of standing out among their friends. If all your friends have more money than god, you need something especially expensive or rare that isn't acquirable from simply being able to buy it. Secondly, wealthy art collectors are notorious for buying rare, stolen art. There's an entire underground for it. I've read several books on it and you'd be surprised at how many pieces float around in the underground market without anybody ever knowing about it. I've had friends who run in the art circles comment on a famous piece that was being displayed in a person's home and they ask about it and they brush it off and say, "Meh, it's a replication, I mean, it would be illegal to have the real thing, right?" with a wink and a nod to the person. Just the idea they have something no one else can have gives them plenty of enjoyment. Passing it off as a fake and the thought they're getting away with something also has something to do with it.
- FRex 9y ago
  This is the reasoning given as a guess by one of the thieves in the Polish criminal comedy film Vinci. It's funny that it's true.

gtsteve 9y ago

I could imagine an astonishingly wealthy person finding they no longer get any enjoyment from buying regular things taking delight in owning a stolen original. Nobody else has that. If that hypothetical person happens to live in a country where extradition to New Zealand would be impossible, or they have appropriate connections, it might be seen as an acceptable risk. And perhaps in a few generations, the heirs of that wealthy person could sell it on. I don't really know how it works if you discover you've inherited property that was stolen a hundred years ago for example. At what point does it become yours?

microcolonel 9y ago
> At what point does it become yours? At no point does it become yours. I'm pretty sure that, while you can't necessarily prosecute the person currently in possession, you could almost certainly recover the property if you could prove it was stolen from your estate. Added: In most English speaking countries it becomes a crime to willfully possess stolen property as soon as you know that it is stolen. In general, the lack of mens rea in merely possessing stolen goods would make it enough to repatriate the goods, but if that's not enough, most statutes on the matter explicitly state that you must know and wish to unlawfully handle the stolen property.
- LyndsySimon 9y ago
  I wonder if it being an international theft would impact the true owner's ability to recover the work, even if they knew who possessed it?
  - microcolonel 9y ago
    I think most civilized countries would recognize a theft committed in another country as rendering the property stolen property, unless they had some important relationship with the criminal or their heirs. Some countries might be easier to pay off, though (but as a result, also more dangerous places to store valuable goods).
- QAPereo 9y ago
  Receiving stolen property is a crime. Edit: or not in this case, my bad.
  - microcolonel 9y ago
    At least in England, Wales, Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland, the United States of America, and Canada, knowing that the property was stolen or otherwise obtained by crime is an essential element of the crime.
    - QAPereo 9y ago
      If this person is buying art from the unlisted web, if they're not going to be able to prove provenance... what do you think they're going to be able to say? "Oh gee, I knew it was stolen when I went to the "dark web" to buy it, and it's a well-known stolen piece, but I had no idea that I was receiving stolen property!" It's not like buying something from e-bay, and it turns out the seller boosted it from a van; that is not your fault.
      - microcolonel 9y ago
        > If this person is buying art from the unlisted web, if they're not going to be able to prove provenance. I think you may have lost track of the thread here. I was addressing this question posed by gtsteve. > And perhaps in a few generations, the heirs of that wealthy person could sell it on. I don't really know how it works if you discover you've inherited property that was stolen a hundred years ago for example. At what point does it become yours? It is obviously unlawful to traffick knowingly in stolen goods. It is as serious a crime as the theft itself (sans aggravating factors like use of force or intimidation, especially with a deadly weapon).
        QAPereo 9y ago
        I did indeed lose track, thanks for pointing that out so gently.

mustacheemperor 9y ago

I imagine the perpetrators may also be hoping someone will buy it philanthropically, to return it to the original gallery.

paulie_a 9y ago
There was a thief that would do that fairly routinely. If I recall correctly it was covered in "the art of the heist"

at-fates-hands 9y ago

Two things really. Through my travels, I've met some insanely wealthy people (most were borderline billionaires, some were actual billionaires) and I've been told once you reach a certain income level, having something that is rare or something nobody else has is their way of standing out among their friends. If all your friends have more money than god, you need something especially expensive or rare that isn't acquirable from simply being able to buy it. Secondly, wealthy art collectors are notorious for buying rare, stolen art. There's an entire underground for it. I've read several books on it and you'd be surprised at how many pieces float around in the underground market without anybody ever knowing about it. I've had friends who run in the art circles comment on a famous piece that was being displayed in a person's home and they ask about it and they brush it off and say, "Meh, it's a replication, I mean, it would be illegal to have the real thing, right?" with a wink and a nod to the person. Just the idea they have something no one else can have gives them plenty of enjoyment. Passing it off as a fake and the thought they're getting away with something also has something to do with it.

FRex 9y ago
This is the reasoning given as a guess by one of the thieves in the Polish criminal comedy film Vinci. It's funny that it's true.