23 ms·

invading sovereign country and annexing part of it IS NOT protecting their interests. Also “obviously staged western coup” IS NOT obvious.

freeflight 9y ago
> invading sovereign country and annexing part of it IS NOT protecting their interests. Unless that sovereign country happens to be Iraq and you skip that whole "annexation" part in favor of just leveling the whole place. Why is the US allowed to "protect their interests" on the other side of the world, but if Russia does the same, in a place that's literally their backyard, it's suddenly a crime? Eastern Ukraine was of immense military relevance to Russia, it's where parts of their rockets used to be built, parts of their military hardware [0]. Crimea has been the home to the Black Sea Fleet for centuries, it's the most important port for the Russian marine. Those are all facts people rather ignore in favor of this naive "Russia just goes around annexing countries for no reason whatsoever" narrative. > Also “obviously staged western coup” IS NOT obvious. I guess "Fuck the EU Nuland" handing out cookies was just some emotional gesture with no relevance, same with all those other US/EU officials showing up on Euromaidan and pumping up the crowd. Just like pumping billions of $ in the country and sponsoring "Yats our man" trough NATO/NED and even the DoT [1], feel free to look up the other organizations on that list, there's a certain "theme" to them. It's also not like this has never happened before, it actually has [2] but this time the result did stick, that's why Russia was pressured into acting. [0] https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-ukraine-military-equipment/25312911.html https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-ukraine-military-equipment/25... [1] http://openukraine.org/en/about/partners http://openukraine.org/en/about/partners [2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa
- muninn_ 9y ago
  Ukraine and Iraq are nowhere near comparable situations.
- akoncius 9y ago
  where I defended US actions in Iraq? I did not. All this whataboutism distracts from main point - Russia invaded Ukraine, sovereign country, and that's a fact, regardless of how you turn that event for your convenience. I understand benefits for Russia to annex Crimea and so on, but still it's a crime and legitimacy of this action is not questionable.
  - freeflight 9y ago
    You can replace Iraq with any other sovereign country the US meddled in to "protect their national interests", there's a long list of those from which you can choose. I don't consider it "whataboutism" to point out double standards. If it's legit for the US to meddle in other sovereign countries, to protect their "national interests" on the other end of the world, then the same behavior should be legit for everybody else because I do not subscribe to the concept of "American exceptionalism". > I understand benefits for Russia to annex Crimea and so on, but still it's a crime and legitimacy of this action is not questionable. I guess then it's a good thing nothing was annexed but people rather voted for independence, just like the people of Ukraine voted in "free and open elections" and everything went according to the Ukrainian constitution. A narrative can be such a handy device, good thing it ain't reserved for exceptionalists, just like using unmarked PMC's for tasks where official soldiers would lead to international legal troubles with the ICC, which the US doesn't even acknowledge (so much about international "crimes" and "legitimacy of actions"). Let's leave it at that, it's obvious we won't be agreeing on much and at this point, the discussion has become rather OT, have a nice evening.
    - akoncius 9y ago
      name one country which was annexed by USA in last decade

freeflight 9y ago

> invading sovereign country and annexing part of it IS NOT protecting their interests. Unless that sovereign country happens to be Iraq and you skip that whole "annexation" part in favor of just leveling the whole place. Why is the US allowed to "protect their interests" on the other side of the world, but if Russia does the same, in a place that's literally their backyard, it's suddenly a crime? Eastern Ukraine was of immense military relevance to Russia, it's where parts of their rockets used to be built, parts of their military hardware [0]. Crimea has been the home to the Black Sea Fleet for centuries, it's the most important port for the Russian marine. Those are all facts people rather ignore in favor of this naive "Russia just goes around annexing countries for no reason whatsoever" narrative. > Also “obviously staged western coup” IS NOT obvious. I guess "Fuck the EU Nuland" handing out cookies was just some emotional gesture with no relevance, same with all those other US/EU officials showing up on Euromaidan and pumping up the crowd. Just like pumping billions of $ in the country and sponsoring "Yats our man" trough NATO/NED and even the DoT [1], feel free to look up the other organizations on that list, there's a certain "theme" to them. It's also not like this has never happened before, it actually has [2] but this time the result did stick, that's why Russia was pressured into acting. [0] https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-ukraine-military-equipment/25312911.html https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-ukraine-military-equipment/25... [1] http://openukraine.org/en/about/partners http://openukraine.org/en/about/partners [2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa

muninn_ 9y ago
Ukraine and Iraq are nowhere near comparable situations.
akoncius 9y ago
where I defended US actions in Iraq? I did not. All this whataboutism distracts from main point - Russia invaded Ukraine, sovereign country, and that's a fact, regardless of how you turn that event for your convenience. I understand benefits for Russia to annex Crimea and so on, but still it's a crime and legitimacy of this action is not questionable.
- freeflight 9y ago
  You can replace Iraq with any other sovereign country the US meddled in to "protect their national interests", there's a long list of those from which you can choose. I don't consider it "whataboutism" to point out double standards. If it's legit for the US to meddle in other sovereign countries, to protect their "national interests" on the other end of the world, then the same behavior should be legit for everybody else because I do not subscribe to the concept of "American exceptionalism". > I understand benefits for Russia to annex Crimea and so on, but still it's a crime and legitimacy of this action is not questionable. I guess then it's a good thing nothing was annexed but people rather voted for independence, just like the people of Ukraine voted in "free and open elections" and everything went according to the Ukrainian constitution. A narrative can be such a handy device, good thing it ain't reserved for exceptionalists, just like using unmarked PMC's for tasks where official soldiers would lead to international legal troubles with the ICC, which the US doesn't even acknowledge (so much about international "crimes" and "legitimacy of actions"). Let's leave it at that, it's obvious we won't be agreeing on much and at this point, the discussion has become rather OT, have a nice evening.
  - akoncius 9y ago
    name one country which was annexed by USA in last decade