6 ms·

“Beautiful” in the Constitution of the Chinese Communist Party

46 points by mcenedella 9y ago

blauditore 9y ago
How prevalent is the use of "sprachgefühl" in English? Whenever I read such a German word where there would be a "more native" english alternative ("feel for language" here), I wonder what the motivation of the author was to use the German variant. Sometimes, there are subtle differences in usage and meaning, but sometimes, I have the impression the author is just showing off their vocabulary.
- Mediterraneo10 9y ago
  English linguistics jargon abounds with German words (Sprachbund, Wanderwort, Aktionsart...) The author isn’t showing off – this is a blog written by linguists mainly for linguists, so it wouldn’t impress anyone. He’s just using the lingo that people come to use as they immerse themselves in this field.
- code_duck 9y ago
  An article such as this strikes me as an appropriate place to show off an author's vocabulary.
- rntz 9y ago
  It's not common in ordinary English, but perhaps it is common jargon among linguists?
  - caio1982 9y ago
    I don't know how common it is but yeah I first heard of that at university. I'm a linguist (in Brazil).
- arghwhat 9y ago
  "style and preference" seems so much more natural than "style and sprachgefühl". I like German as a language, but using German in English always seems so awkward, especially due to drastic, almost comical pronunciation differences. After all, various German words have turned into internet meme's of their own entirely due to how awkward and fun it sounds when said in English contexts ("FLAMMENWERFER. IT WERFS FLAMMEN.").
  - mmjaa 9y ago
    Interestingly, the use of English in German (the opposite) is not nearly as awkward, and often comes off as quite intelligent and resourceful on the part of the speaker. I think there is a cultural bias behind this, however. The English are not as inclined to learn other languages as is the case in the German-speaking world, and I think this really works in the German-speaking favor. For example, it is very difficult for an English-speaking native to come to Germany and start speaking German - everyone else would rather practice their English instead, meaning that .. the English learn German much slower than the Germans learn English. So actually, it could be claimed that Sprachgefühl is one of those words that just should come into the English lexicon, and we ought to bloody get on with having a bit more of it, in our English-biased cultures, because it really does increase ones awareness of the world.
    - humanrebar 9y ago
      In defense of English speakers, one can use Spanish words relatively freely without seeming awkward: gracias, siesta, amigo, macho, etc. It's worth pointing out that these are all practical day-to-day words. Perhaps the difference is there, also. Contrast cul-de-sac and ennui.
      - mmjaa 9y ago
        I think there is a certain stigma to English people using German words, on account of the fact that the nations have a long history of rivalry and open warfare against each other .. perhaps a linguist can pipe in and tell us if there was ever a period where Spanish words had a similar degree of stigma, after wars and so on ..
        eru 9y ago
        The Brits and the Germans historically got along like a house on fire during the vast majority of the last few hundred years. If anything, the stigma you talk about should exist between English and French.
- bashonomore 9y ago
  Instead of thinking that the author is "showing off" perhaps one should take it as an opportunity to learn something new. If one always encounters words/concepts one already knows, how does one learn anything new?
  - blauditore 9y ago
    Well, German is my first language, so I obviously understood what it means. But it feels out of place in English. More common words like kindergarten or schadenfreude make much more sense to me, that's why I was asking.
- igravious 9y ago
  Has been mentioned a few times in passing on HN: 6 years ago here: “Ruby and The Principle of Unwelcome Surprise” https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3087823#3087918 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3087823#3087918 and 5 years ago here: “The Pronunciation of Django” https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4976551#4976962 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4976551#4976962 and here: “Nomadic programming” https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4821753#4822701 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4821753#4822701 As someone says on Wordnik: https://www.wordnik.com/words/Sprachgefühl https://www.wordnik.com/words/Sprachgefühl “ Sprachgefühl has arguably been brought to light by David Foster Wallace's "snoot" acronym, which stands for either "Sprachgefühl Necessitates Our Ongoing Tendance" or "Syntax Nudniks of Our Time." ” It's relatively uncommon/obscure linguistic jargon that has seen its currency appreciate in recent years owing to DFW worship.
paradite 9y ago
As a native Chinese speaker and a Chinese citizen, I found nothing interesting in this article except the author's dislike towards CCP. It looks like the author wanted to understand the meaning of 美丽 in this context but failed so instead he/she just dumped all his raw research and personal opinions without justifications and deeper analysis. > Note that, as a rhetorical progression, the five modifiers from "rich and powerful" to "beautiful" become increasingly abstract, with "beautiful" amounting to an unassailable purified truth. This sentence is not really making sense to me. The 5 adjectives are all abstract, and 美丽 is the less abstract one among them because you normally use it to refer to physically objects. Also, the discussion on single character vs two characters are pretty much irrelevant to the contextual meaning of the word 美丽 here, because the two character word is used just to make all 5 adjectives have two characters uniformly (more beautiful). If the other 4 adjectives were single character, this word would also be single character. In Chinese, the usage of single vs multiple characters is mostly purely for aesthetics of the written sentence. For example: 真，善，美 (all single characters, looks and sounds nice) vs 美丽的上海 (adjective and subject are both two characters, looks and sounds nice)
- caio1982 9y ago
  Please post a deeper analysis so we can compare them :-) Language Log is pretty open to debate so I guess they would even republish there if it is a good one!
- cristiantincu 9y ago
  > In conclusion, the newly added měilì 美丽 ("beautiful") in the Party constitution is completely unrelated to the abstract ideal of "beauty" of the Platonic or Aristotelian sort. This is a pretty interesting remark, in the eyes of a westerner. Care to comment on it?
  - paradite 9y ago
    Like I said in the edited comment in parent, 美丽 is mostly used to describe physical objects. So it is going to be interpreted as beautiful towns, cities and houses by the general public. And the officials will maybe prioritize some gentrification, renovation projects in alignment to this. I don't know why the author thought so deeply about it. It should be pretty straightforward.
valgor 9y ago
> Communism and Democracy are antithetical Not to derail the train, but it is hard to take anyone serious on the subject of Communism with statements like that. Communism is democracy taken to the extreme with no bosses at work and no classes in society. Historical implements of Communism of course another conversation, but looking at definitions the author is exactly wrong.
- eru 9y ago
  That's according to your definition of democracy and communism. To give another example: the Athenians had very different definitions of democracy. They would probably call our democratic systems of today oligarchies. For them a big part of democracy was given out official positions by lot. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy#Selection_by_lot_.28sortition_.2F_allotment.29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy#Selection_b...)
- andrepd 9y ago
  That's absolutely correct, of course. Socialism, the common ownership of the means of production, must necessarily be democratic.
kercker 9y ago
These five words in the constitution of the CCP describe the five aspects of policies in China: economy(富强), politics(民主), culture(文明), society(和谐), and ecological civilization(美丽). 美丽 is used to describe a China that has clear water, clear sky, green fields ... It is not that abstract as described in the article.

46 points by mcenedella 9y ago

How prevalent is the use of "sprachgefühl" in English? Whenever I read such a German word where there would be a "more native" english alternative ("feel for language" here), I wonder what the motivation of the author was to use the German variant. Sometimes, there are subtle differences in usage and meaning, but sometimes, I have the impression the author is just showing off their vocabulary.

Mediterraneo10 9y ago
English linguistics jargon abounds with German words (Sprachbund, Wanderwort, Aktionsart...) The author isn’t showing off – this is a blog written by linguists mainly for linguists, so it wouldn’t impress anyone. He’s just using the lingo that people come to use as they immerse themselves in this field.
code_duck 9y ago
An article such as this strikes me as an appropriate place to show off an author's vocabulary.
rntz 9y ago
It's not common in ordinary English, but perhaps it is common jargon among linguists?
- caio1982 9y ago
  I don't know how common it is but yeah I first heard of that at university. I'm a linguist (in Brazil).
arghwhat 9y ago
"style and preference" seems so much more natural than "style and sprachgefühl". I like German as a language, but using German in English always seems so awkward, especially due to drastic, almost comical pronunciation differences. After all, various German words have turned into internet meme's of their own entirely due to how awkward and fun it sounds when said in English contexts ("FLAMMENWERFER. IT WERFS FLAMMEN.").
- mmjaa 9y ago
  Interestingly, the use of English in German (the opposite) is not nearly as awkward, and often comes off as quite intelligent and resourceful on the part of the speaker. I think there is a cultural bias behind this, however. The English are not as inclined to learn other languages as is the case in the German-speaking world, and I think this really works in the German-speaking favor. For example, it is very difficult for an English-speaking native to come to Germany and start speaking German - everyone else would rather practice their English instead, meaning that .. the English learn German much slower than the Germans learn English. So actually, it could be claimed that Sprachgefühl is one of those words that just should come into the English lexicon, and we ought to bloody get on with having a bit more of it, in our English-biased cultures, because it really does increase ones awareness of the world.
  - humanrebar 9y ago
    In defense of English speakers, one can use Spanish words relatively freely without seeming awkward: gracias, siesta, amigo, macho, etc. It's worth pointing out that these are all practical day-to-day words. Perhaps the difference is there, also. Contrast cul-de-sac and ennui.
    - mmjaa 9y ago
      I think there is a certain stigma to English people using German words, on account of the fact that the nations have a long history of rivalry and open warfare against each other .. perhaps a linguist can pipe in and tell us if there was ever a period where Spanish words had a similar degree of stigma, after wars and so on ..
      - eru 9y ago
        The Brits and the Germans historically got along like a house on fire during the vast majority of the last few hundred years. If anything, the stigma you talk about should exist between English and French.
bashonomore 9y ago
Instead of thinking that the author is "showing off" perhaps one should take it as an opportunity to learn something new. If one always encounters words/concepts one already knows, how does one learn anything new?
- blauditore 9y ago
  Well, German is my first language, so I obviously understood what it means. But it feels out of place in English. More common words like kindergarten or schadenfreude make much more sense to me, that's why I was asking.
igravious 9y ago
Has been mentioned a few times in passing on HN: 6 years ago here: “Ruby and The Principle of Unwelcome Surprise” https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3087823#3087918 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3087823#3087918 and 5 years ago here: “The Pronunciation of Django” https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4976551#4976962 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4976551#4976962 and here: “Nomadic programming” https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4821753#4822701 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4821753#4822701 As someone says on Wordnik: https://www.wordnik.com/words/Sprachgefühl https://www.wordnik.com/words/Sprachgefühl “ Sprachgefühl has arguably been brought to light by David Foster Wallace's "snoot" acronym, which stands for either "Sprachgefühl Necessitates Our Ongoing Tendance" or "Syntax Nudniks of Our Time." ” It's relatively uncommon/obscure linguistic jargon that has seen its currency appreciate in recent years owing to DFW worship.

paradite 9y ago

As a native Chinese speaker and a Chinese citizen, I found nothing interesting in this article except the author's dislike towards CCP. It looks like the author wanted to understand the meaning of 美丽 in this context but failed so instead he/she just dumped all his raw research and personal opinions without justifications and deeper analysis. > Note that, as a rhetorical progression, the five modifiers from "rich and powerful" to "beautiful" become increasingly abstract, with "beautiful" amounting to an unassailable purified truth. This sentence is not really making sense to me. The 5 adjectives are all abstract, and 美丽 is the less abstract one among them because you normally use it to refer to physically objects. Also, the discussion on single character vs two characters are pretty much irrelevant to the contextual meaning of the word 美丽 here, because the two character word is used just to make all 5 adjectives have two characters uniformly (more beautiful). If the other 4 adjectives were single character, this word would also be single character. In Chinese, the usage of single vs multiple characters is mostly purely for aesthetics of the written sentence. For example: 真，善，美 (all single characters, looks and sounds nice) vs 美丽的上海 (adjective and subject are both two characters, looks and sounds nice)

caio1982 9y ago
Please post a deeper analysis so we can compare them :-) Language Log is pretty open to debate so I guess they would even republish there if it is a good one!
cristiantincu 9y ago
> In conclusion, the newly added měilì 美丽 ("beautiful") in the Party constitution is completely unrelated to the abstract ideal of "beauty" of the Platonic or Aristotelian sort. This is a pretty interesting remark, in the eyes of a westerner. Care to comment on it?
- paradite 9y ago
  Like I said in the edited comment in parent, 美丽 is mostly used to describe physical objects. So it is going to be interpreted as beautiful towns, cities and houses by the general public. And the officials will maybe prioritize some gentrification, renovation projects in alignment to this. I don't know why the author thought so deeply about it. It should be pretty straightforward.

valgor 9y ago

> Communism and Democracy are antithetical Not to derail the train, but it is hard to take anyone serious on the subject of Communism with statements like that. Communism is democracy taken to the extreme with no bosses at work and no classes in society. Historical implements of Communism of course another conversation, but looking at definitions the author is exactly wrong.

eru 9y ago
That's according to your definition of democracy and communism. To give another example: the Athenians had very different definitions of democracy. They would probably call our democratic systems of today oligarchies. For them a big part of democracy was given out official positions by lot. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy#Selection_by_lot_.28sortition_.2F_allotment.29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy#Selection_b...)
andrepd 9y ago
That's absolutely correct, of course. Socialism, the common ownership of the means of production, must necessarily be democratic.

kercker 9y ago

These five words in the constitution of the CCP describe the five aspects of policies in China: economy(富强), politics(民主), culture(文明), society(和谐), and ecological civilization(美丽). 美丽 is used to describe a China that has clear water, clear sky, green fields ... It is not that abstract as described in the article.