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> I see no value to cryptocurrencies besides black market transactions and hacking around with financial instruments It costs a small fortune to send money int

> I see no value to cryptocurrencies besides black market transactions and hacking around with financial instruments It costs a small fortune to send money internationally not to mention the friction of needing to have a bank account - almost 40% of the people on the planet do not have one[1]. Something like Bitcoin et al (not necessarily BTC itself!), where you can get an address immediately that can send and receive a balance from anywhere & anyone in the world without impediment has the potential to be huge. I appreciate I am being a bit starry-eyed here but I can see a real value to it globally if such a vision can continue. That's not to condone what might now be happening with institutional investors and Wall St getting in on the action in a big way, or the state of the tech (transaction fees at present, verification delays, snake oil ICOs). The core concept of a currency like this is valuable societally IMO. It might not be bitcoin in the end but the idea, like the internet and publishing, is a powerful one. [1] http://www.worldbank.org/en/programs/globalfindex http://www.worldbank.org/en/programs/globalfindex

root_axis 9y ago
>not to mention the friction of needing to have a bank account How does one acquire bitcoin without a bank account? Meeting up with a random person to do a real life exchange is an absurd necessity for a digital currency, it's also risky, comes with a huge markup, is constrained to regional availability and takes time to schedule and actually do the exchange.
- jaymzcampbell 9y ago
  If you gave me your bitcoin address I could transfer you some right now, we don't have to meet up, likewise you don't have to have a bank account to make use of it. If merchants in your area accepted bitcoin you could then use that to pay for goods & services. Ok, I bought some of my bitcoin using my bank account but I could've also mined it at some stage (unrealistic now but besides the point) - no bank needed.
  - root_axis 9y ago
    > If you gave me your bitcoin address I could transfer you some right now, we don't have to meet up Huh? I mean this is obviously not what I'm talking about, I don't think I have to elaborate further. > If merchants in your area accepted bitcoin you could then use that to pay for goods & services A prohibitively impractical "if" for the vast majority of wants and needs. That's just an undeniable reality. > Ok, I bought some of my bitcoin using my bank account but I could've also mined it at some stage (unrealistic now but besides the point) - no bank needed. Not beside the point at all, that is exactly point: the "no bank account needed" is only true in theory. It's like saying "if you get into a serious car accident just pay for the medical costs out of pocket: see, no insurance needed!"
    - jaymzcampbell 9y ago
      > Huh? I mean this is obviously not what I'm talking about, I don't think I have to elaborate further. Sorry, I don't follow then. You asked how you get it without a bank account and I believe I answered that. Why does it matter if I have happened to purchase my coins via an exchange using Euros? Why would you think we would have to meet up personally? As for your other comments, well I was not suggesting that Bitcoin, or crypto, is ready for this right now. The original point I was replying to was that there is no use for it at all when I think (it was an opinion) - that there is potential in the technology. I am imagining the "if", in the spirit of the original comment, not the current reality. No bank account needed is true in reality - you could do a remote job and be paid in bitcoin if you really wanted. Or sell goods/services via Open Bazaar [1] and receive bitcoin. None of this might be "good enough" for you but it does exist. We are also far, far on the left of the adoption curve, so yes, I agree there's a ton of stuff to make it more practical than it is. [1] https://www.openbazaar.org/ https://www.openbazaar.org/
      - root_axis 9y ago
        > Why does it matter if I have happened to purchase my coins via an exchange using Euros? Because it reinforces the fact that access to bitcoin generally requires a bank account. Everyone knows it is possible to transfer bitcoin over the internet, the key part is that nobody will do that for free, so an exchange must be facilitated and facilitation of exchange over the internet nearly always requires a bank account. > you could do a remote job and be paid in bitcoin if you really wanted A luxury available only to tiny fraction of the population, and even then, it's difficult to find substantial work where one is paid in bitcoins without a lot of searching (all the cryptocurrency focused job boards are ghost-towns full of trash and scams) > Or sell goods/services via Open Bazaar [1] and receive bitcoin Totally impractical - Open Bazaar is a ghost-town and there are no marketplaces with more activity besides darknet markets (and I've actually tried to sell stuff on OB and seen this first-hand). Also 2-3 multisig is not a solution to the problem of fraud which has an excellent risk/reward ratio for scammers on markets like Open Bazaar.
Nursie 9y ago
It's pretty cheap to send money internationally in a lot of places, and pretty quick too. The oft-touted benefit of BTC is not that new or appealing to the whole world. In fact a lot of the selling points I see boil down to flaws in the US banking system, and skewed views of how the rest of the world operates.
- jaymzcampbell 9y ago
  From my own recent experience, I had to spend £10 to send €6, pay conversion fees and it took 2 days to go through. https://estimatefee.com/ https://estimatefee.com/ suggests right now for a 2-hour confirmation a cost of around $3 via BTC. (Natwest in the UK to an account in the EU).
  - Nursie 9y ago
    I didn't pay much more than that to transfer about £20k from Australia to the UK a couple of years back. I think I paid about £12...

root_axis 9y ago

>not to mention the friction of needing to have a bank account How does one acquire bitcoin without a bank account? Meeting up with a random person to do a real life exchange is an absurd necessity for a digital currency, it's also risky, comes with a huge markup, is constrained to regional availability and takes time to schedule and actually do the exchange.

jaymzcampbell 9y ago
If you gave me your bitcoin address I could transfer you some right now, we don't have to meet up, likewise you don't have to have a bank account to make use of it. If merchants in your area accepted bitcoin you could then use that to pay for goods & services. Ok, I bought some of my bitcoin using my bank account but I could've also mined it at some stage (unrealistic now but besides the point) - no bank needed.
- root_axis 9y ago
  > If you gave me your bitcoin address I could transfer you some right now, we don't have to meet up Huh? I mean this is obviously not what I'm talking about, I don't think I have to elaborate further. > If merchants in your area accepted bitcoin you could then use that to pay for goods & services A prohibitively impractical "if" for the vast majority of wants and needs. That's just an undeniable reality. > Ok, I bought some of my bitcoin using my bank account but I could've also mined it at some stage (unrealistic now but besides the point) - no bank needed. Not beside the point at all, that is exactly point: the "no bank account needed" is only true in theory. It's like saying "if you get into a serious car accident just pay for the medical costs out of pocket: see, no insurance needed!"
  - jaymzcampbell 9y ago
    > Huh? I mean this is obviously not what I'm talking about, I don't think I have to elaborate further. Sorry, I don't follow then. You asked how you get it without a bank account and I believe I answered that. Why does it matter if I have happened to purchase my coins via an exchange using Euros? Why would you think we would have to meet up personally? As for your other comments, well I was not suggesting that Bitcoin, or crypto, is ready for this right now. The original point I was replying to was that there is no use for it at all when I think (it was an opinion) - that there is potential in the technology. I am imagining the "if", in the spirit of the original comment, not the current reality. No bank account needed is true in reality - you could do a remote job and be paid in bitcoin if you really wanted. Or sell goods/services via Open Bazaar [1] and receive bitcoin. None of this might be "good enough" for you but it does exist. We are also far, far on the left of the adoption curve, so yes, I agree there's a ton of stuff to make it more practical than it is. [1] https://www.openbazaar.org/ https://www.openbazaar.org/
    - root_axis 9y ago
      > Why does it matter if I have happened to purchase my coins via an exchange using Euros? Because it reinforces the fact that access to bitcoin generally requires a bank account. Everyone knows it is possible to transfer bitcoin over the internet, the key part is that nobody will do that for free, so an exchange must be facilitated and facilitation of exchange over the internet nearly always requires a bank account. > you could do a remote job and be paid in bitcoin if you really wanted A luxury available only to tiny fraction of the population, and even then, it's difficult to find substantial work where one is paid in bitcoins without a lot of searching (all the cryptocurrency focused job boards are ghost-towns full of trash and scams) > Or sell goods/services via Open Bazaar [1] and receive bitcoin Totally impractical - Open Bazaar is a ghost-town and there are no marketplaces with more activity besides darknet markets (and I've actually tried to sell stuff on OB and seen this first-hand). Also 2-3 multisig is not a solution to the problem of fraud which has an excellent risk/reward ratio for scammers on markets like Open Bazaar.

Nursie 9y ago

It's pretty cheap to send money internationally in a lot of places, and pretty quick too. The oft-touted benefit of BTC is not that new or appealing to the whole world. In fact a lot of the selling points I see boil down to flaws in the US banking system, and skewed views of how the rest of the world operates.

jaymzcampbell 9y ago
From my own recent experience, I had to spend £10 to send €6, pay conversion fees and it took 2 days to go through. https://estimatefee.com/ https://estimatefee.com/ suggests right now for a 2-hour confirmation a cost of around $3 via BTC. (Natwest in the UK to an account in the EU).
- Nursie 9y ago
  I didn't pay much more than that to transfer about £20k from Australia to the UK a couple of years back. I think I paid about £12...