6 ms·

Bitcoin was a good proof of concept, the true value will come from things like Ethereum and others. Even thought the ICOs are in a clear bubble right now, the

by mrwong 9y ago

Bitcoin was a good proof of concept, the true value will come from things like Ethereum and others. Even thought the ICOs are in a clear bubble right now, the mechanism behind the ICOs is a solid one and could provide low friction VC funding for the next generation of Start Ups. Taking out rent seeking institutions like Private Equity banks, VCs and traditional banks will create a lot of value. Ethereums first mover advantage for the ICO market will proof to be of a huge value in the race for the dominating world crypto currency.

joosters 9y ago
...the mechanism behind the ICOs is a solid one... Only if you ignore the very large risk of SEC enforcement, given that most ICOs are securities. (and claiming that ICO investments are 'donations', like some have tried, isn't going to cut it!)
- mrwong 9y ago
  95% of People on this planet are not affected by the SEC. (they live outside of the US)
  - alexasmyths 9y ago
    The same entities in other parts of the world will take similar action, because of the inherent problems with ICOs as a financial instrument. But it won't matter - the SEC won't have to do anything. After the flood of ICO's this year - investor will see how most of them are bust, and will pull their money out. The market will correct itself on that one.
    - mrwong 9y ago
      just like the market corrected after Bitcoin hit 1$ the first time 10$ the first time 100$ the first time 1000$ the first time. 8000$ the first time. Sure markets correct, but somehow the ride continued. I love how Silicon Valley was ridiculing industries like print, brick and mortar commerce and old-media for not adopting to the new future technologies. But now that something appeared that challenges SVs status quo, they do just the same and dismiss it. I think this shows that legacy thinking is a psychological problem and not an IQ problem.
      - guiomie 9y ago
        I find quite entertaining how you just generalized every company and individual in SV as dismissing crypto. There is no undenying VCs have always been a central part of SV, and tons of them are invested in blockchain companies, their are tons of blockchain startups in SF/SV and some big tech companies like Microsoft are also involved.
      - mbaha 9y ago
        Couldn't agree more. Although to be more precise, ETH/ICOs are threatening the standard financing model proper in Silicon Valley, and not SV as a whole. I basically see the future as being both really dystopic and utopic at the same time: So (mostly rich) people will be able to invest their money without any friction, but this will destroy the rent-seeking institutions that weren't meant to exist in the first place => power to the geeks and the rich, but you won't be able to make any money by just making "deals". Would love to be convinced otherwise though....
        alexasmyths 9y ago
        "ETH/ICOs are threatening the standard financing model" ICOs are challenging nothing. ICOers are selling 'numbers' for real money - and the value of those 'numbers' is going to zero pretty quickly. BTC will be around for a while, but these ICO-ers are selling nothing in return for real money, and that won't last. It will end soon. Nobody has a 'lock' on the 'VC' model. Anyone can invest - including you. The issue relates mostly to regulations, which are there to protect you - and also actual ownership of assets, which is a pretty big deal.
  - wpietri 9y ago
    The relevant factor for market regulation is not the number of people but the size of the market. The US stock market is 39% of all publicly traded stocks. The US market is bigger than the next 8 countries put together. Source: https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/CM.MKT.LCAP.CD/rankings https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/CM.MKT.LCAP.CD/r... Moreover, countries with successful stock markets tend to follow similar rules because they coordinate with one another. The US is a leader in that.
  - madeofpalk 9y ago
    China has banned ICOs https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/04/chinas-central-bank-has-banned-icos/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/04/chinas-central-bank-has-ba...
    - mycall 9y ago
      Not all https://themerkle.com/can-neo-become-chinas-go-to-platform-for-icos/ https://themerkle.com/can-neo-become-chinas-go-to-platform-f...
  - zerostar07 9y ago
    would you be interested in a bet on what the EU will do ?
- xtracto 9y ago
  One of the things I have heard a lot nowadays in the blockchain scene is that people like to call it "utility tokens" trying get a pass from the SEC and CSA (who also recently ruled that ICO's tokens are securities)
- jMyles 9y ago
  Thwarting, undermining, and ultimately abolishing the violent habits of the heavy-handed and centralized state infrastructure is obviously a part of the vision for this tech. In other words, it's not really production-ready until the SEC is unable to harass, intimidate, and target.
alexasmyths 9y ago
"the mechanism behind the ICOs is a solid one " No - selling a 'fantasy number' in exchange for real currency is not 'solid' model. ICO's have been big recently because buyers were hoping to get in early on a pyramid-like scheme. (Yes, I know it's not quite pyramid), i.e. it's been hype. Because ICO's offer no ownership of assets ... well ... in the long run they're not worth much. And 'ownerhip of an economy' is not saying much if there is no economy. Kik's Kin coins are down 80% and not only that - Kik has 900 Billion of the Kins they can dilute the 100 Billion in market with, meaning another 90% devaluation is coming. And Kin's get you a share of what economy exactly? The 'Kik' economy? There is no Kik economy.
- mrwong 9y ago
  Dismissing ICO in this early stage is equal to dismissing eCommerce 20years ago because someone got scammed buying something online. Countries like Switzerland and Singapore created and will further create a legal structure to connect the real world transactions to the tokens. Sure some countries will ban it, just like China has banned free internet access, this doesn't mean that free internet access is bad.
  - empath75 9y ago
    Name one ICO that has backed a legitimate, on-going, profit-making business, beyond selling ico tokens.
    - mrwong 9y ago
      ICO sales took of this summer, early stage startups usually, so would be naive to think that most of them should be profitable already. But here are a two. Startup that issues you a Mastercard that is backed by your BTC, ETC. So you can shop at any store that accepts CCs, but never hold actual Fiat currencies. You recieve tokens as a form of cashback for your CC revenue. And all tokenholder get a share of all the revenue that happens on all the TenX issued CCs. https://www.tenx.tech/ https://www.tenx.tech/ An online casino that shares it profits with the tokenholders (shareholders) https://www.edgeless.io/#!/index https://www.edgeless.io/#!/index
guiomie 9y ago
"Ethereums first mover advantage for the ICO market will proof to be of a huge value in the race for the dominating world crypto currency." Don't you think if a better alternative comes up companies could deprecate tokens and relaunch them on another blockchain?
erikpukinskis 9y ago
I’ve had the same thought—what’s the value of a decentralized ledger when you can trade digital assets just as easily? Why use digital cash when you can pay for your coffee with your Tesla stock or your Linode credits or whatever. But I’m not nearly as certain as you that a pure digital cash will have no value in that world. Yes, Ethereum’s practical value (as a token redeemable for computation) adds volume and provides a price floor, which could make it a more stable store of value. But it also places it in a competitive landscape with other tokens that can perform the same function. Bitcoin is a pure finance play, which should make modeling it much easier, which should give it some unique appeal. Plus the first mover advantage is huge. Even if BTC never works out its transaction rate issues, I think it could solidify as a simple, auditable, modelable store for large value transactions. Sometimes adding features makes a product worse. Twitter was more than Blogger even though it ostensibly did less. In the same sense, I’m not convinced Bitcoin++ will beat Bitcoin. I am very intrigued though. The “BTC is Friendster” hypothesis is an ok one.
retube 9y ago
> Taking out rent seeking institutions private Equity banks, VCs and traditional banks so people will invest money for free via ICOs?

by mrwong 9y ago

joosters 9y ago

...the mechanism behind the ICOs is a solid one... Only if you ignore the very large risk of SEC enforcement, given that most ICOs are securities. (and claiming that ICO investments are 'donations', like some have tried, isn't going to cut it!)

mrwong 9y ago
95% of People on this planet are not affected by the SEC. (they live outside of the US)
- alexasmyths 9y ago
  The same entities in other parts of the world will take similar action, because of the inherent problems with ICOs as a financial instrument. But it won't matter - the SEC won't have to do anything. After the flood of ICO's this year - investor will see how most of them are bust, and will pull their money out. The market will correct itself on that one.
  - mrwong 9y ago
    just like the market corrected after Bitcoin hit 1$ the first time 10$ the first time 100$ the first time 1000$ the first time. 8000$ the first time. Sure markets correct, but somehow the ride continued. I love how Silicon Valley was ridiculing industries like print, brick and mortar commerce and old-media for not adopting to the new future technologies. But now that something appeared that challenges SVs status quo, they do just the same and dismiss it. I think this shows that legacy thinking is a psychological problem and not an IQ problem.
    - guiomie 9y ago
      I find quite entertaining how you just generalized every company and individual in SV as dismissing crypto. There is no undenying VCs have always been a central part of SV, and tons of them are invested in blockchain companies, their are tons of blockchain startups in SF/SV and some big tech companies like Microsoft are also involved.
    - mbaha 9y ago
      Couldn't agree more. Although to be more precise, ETH/ICOs are threatening the standard financing model proper in Silicon Valley, and not SV as a whole. I basically see the future as being both really dystopic and utopic at the same time: So (mostly rich) people will be able to invest their money without any friction, but this will destroy the rent-seeking institutions that weren't meant to exist in the first place => power to the geeks and the rich, but you won't be able to make any money by just making "deals". Would love to be convinced otherwise though....
      - alexasmyths 9y ago
        "ETH/ICOs are threatening the standard financing model" ICOs are challenging nothing. ICOers are selling 'numbers' for real money - and the value of those 'numbers' is going to zero pretty quickly. BTC will be around for a while, but these ICO-ers are selling nothing in return for real money, and that won't last. It will end soon. Nobody has a 'lock' on the 'VC' model. Anyone can invest - including you. The issue relates mostly to regulations, which are there to protect you - and also actual ownership of assets, which is a pretty big deal.
- wpietri 9y ago
  The relevant factor for market regulation is not the number of people but the size of the market. The US stock market is 39% of all publicly traded stocks. The US market is bigger than the next 8 countries put together. Source: https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/CM.MKT.LCAP.CD/rankings https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/CM.MKT.LCAP.CD/r... Moreover, countries with successful stock markets tend to follow similar rules because they coordinate with one another. The US is a leader in that.
- madeofpalk 9y ago
  China has banned ICOs https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/04/chinas-central-bank-has-banned-icos/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/04/chinas-central-bank-has-ba...
  - mycall 9y ago
    Not all https://themerkle.com/can-neo-become-chinas-go-to-platform-for-icos/ https://themerkle.com/can-neo-become-chinas-go-to-platform-f...
- zerostar07 9y ago
  would you be interested in a bet on what the EU will do ?
xtracto 9y ago
One of the things I have heard a lot nowadays in the blockchain scene is that people like to call it "utility tokens" trying get a pass from the SEC and CSA (who also recently ruled that ICO's tokens are securities)
jMyles 9y ago
Thwarting, undermining, and ultimately abolishing the violent habits of the heavy-handed and centralized state infrastructure is obviously a part of the vision for this tech. In other words, it's not really production-ready until the SEC is unable to harass, intimidate, and target.

alexasmyths 9y ago

"the mechanism behind the ICOs is a solid one " No - selling a 'fantasy number' in exchange for real currency is not 'solid' model. ICO's have been big recently because buyers were hoping to get in early on a pyramid-like scheme. (Yes, I know it's not quite pyramid), i.e. it's been hype. Because ICO's offer no ownership of assets ... well ... in the long run they're not worth much. And 'ownerhip of an economy' is not saying much if there is no economy. Kik's Kin coins are down 80% and not only that - Kik has 900 Billion of the Kins they can dilute the 100 Billion in market with, meaning another 90% devaluation is coming. And Kin's get you a share of what economy exactly? The 'Kik' economy? There is no Kik economy.

mrwong 9y ago
Dismissing ICO in this early stage is equal to dismissing eCommerce 20years ago because someone got scammed buying something online. Countries like Switzerland and Singapore created and will further create a legal structure to connect the real world transactions to the tokens. Sure some countries will ban it, just like China has banned free internet access, this doesn't mean that free internet access is bad.
- empath75 9y ago
  Name one ICO that has backed a legitimate, on-going, profit-making business, beyond selling ico tokens.
  - mrwong 9y ago
    ICO sales took of this summer, early stage startups usually, so would be naive to think that most of them should be profitable already. But here are a two. Startup that issues you a Mastercard that is backed by your BTC, ETC. So you can shop at any store that accepts CCs, but never hold actual Fiat currencies. You recieve tokens as a form of cashback for your CC revenue. And all tokenholder get a share of all the revenue that happens on all the TenX issued CCs. https://www.tenx.tech/ https://www.tenx.tech/ An online casino that shares it profits with the tokenholders (shareholders) https://www.edgeless.io/#!/index https://www.edgeless.io/#!/index

guiomie 9y ago

"Ethereums first mover advantage for the ICO market will proof to be of a huge value in the race for the dominating world crypto currency." Don't you think if a better alternative comes up companies could deprecate tokens and relaunch them on another blockchain?

erikpukinskis 9y ago

I’ve had the same thought—what’s the value of a decentralized ledger when you can trade digital assets just as easily? Why use digital cash when you can pay for your coffee with your Tesla stock or your Linode credits or whatever. But I’m not nearly as certain as you that a pure digital cash will have no value in that world. Yes, Ethereum’s practical value (as a token redeemable for computation) adds volume and provides a price floor, which could make it a more stable store of value. But it also places it in a competitive landscape with other tokens that can perform the same function. Bitcoin is a pure finance play, which should make modeling it much easier, which should give it some unique appeal. Plus the first mover advantage is huge. Even if BTC never works out its transaction rate issues, I think it could solidify as a simple, auditable, modelable store for large value transactions. Sometimes adding features makes a product worse. Twitter was more than Blogger even though it ostensibly did less. In the same sense, I’m not convinced Bitcoin++ will beat Bitcoin. I am very intrigued though. The “BTC is Friendster” hypothesis is an ok one.

retube 9y ago

> Taking out rent seeking institutions private Equity banks, VCs and traditional banks so people will invest money for free via ICOs?