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This. I find it very difficult to complain as a coder given the conditions at the moment. Companies battle to hire people and the pay is globally extremely goo

This. I find it very difficult to complain as a coder given the conditions at the moment. Companies battle to hire people and the pay is globally extremely good. Most of the time it is easy to get time off or to accommodate "errands" during the day. As you said, I think a lot of us are out of touch about what it is to get a job outside of tech (and a couple other high demand privileged examples). You want to work from home one day a week ? Need 2 approvals of your N+2 manager. Coming late 3 times in a row? Let's talk about your "behavior". That coffee you just took over there ? It will be 1$ deduced from your paycheck. I feel a lot of us live in the utopia that a job must be fun at all time and that we should always do what we like. Sorry but the world doesn't work like that. Edit: I'm not saying that we shouldn't demand good condition. It is an "offer and demand" economic system after all. We should get what we can negociate to get in the market. I wanted to make the point however that >90% of regular jobs are not pleasant and fun at all time.

tboyd47 9y ago
The churn rate is also high on most software teams. In some cases, successful companies struggle to find candidates because all the good people have worked there before and ran away. One of the brightest developers I've worked with quit after 3 weeks at my company because they were underpaying her and wouldn't give her a raise. This same company complained regularly of not being able to find good talent. Employers think they hold all the leverage and can treat developers how they want. They really don't. Why do you think half of software projects fail to deliver?
- sidlls 9y ago
  > Why do you think half of software projects fail to deliver? A number of reasons: 1. Bikeshedding over the tech stack 2. A glut of CS grads who see a bunch of nails to hit with their textbook and data structures and algorithms knowledge failing to engage in a proper engineering process 3. Poorly defined requirements (blame aplenty to go around here: product development giving insufficient thought to the product details, sales over promising, and "engineers" failing to contribute by treating partnering with these folks as an onerous chore rather than a necessary task) 4. Insufficient resources And many more, I'm sure. Developers aren't blameless, here. In fact over the last couple of years I've come to see them as being at least as much to blame as non-technical people, perhaps even more so.
- Consultant32452 9y ago
  >quit after 3 weeks at my company because they were underpaying her and wouldn't give her a raise. Why would she have accepted an offer she felt was too low?
  - tboyd47 9y ago
    Why wouldn't she? Maybe she wanted to get her foot in the door. The point I'm trying to make is that the company needed her more than she needed them.
    - Consultant32452 9y ago
      >Why wouldn't she? Because it's unethical to agree to work for a rate you're not actually willing to work for. She wasted a lot of people's time and resources to bring her on board for those three weeks. >The point I'm trying to make is that the company needed her more than she needed them. I wouldn't want to work with a person who accepts an offer and then THREE WEEKS later starts demanding raises, no matter what their skill level.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - tboyd47 9y ago
        Like I said, maybe she knew her worth and just wanted to get her foot in the door. I never said she asked for a raise. She just found a better offer elsewhere, and probably would had stayed for the right counteroffer. I wouldn't want to work with a person who puts their own ideas about when it's appropriate to expect a raise over keeping bright people. She didn't waste anyone's time; unlike most, she was productive from day one to the day she left. The company was wasting their own time by optimizing for low compensation and not engineering acumen. Companies have no problem staffing projects they know will be canceled soon, or projects that are underfunded. It's a dog eat dog world, I'm afraid.
        heimidal 9y ago
cyberpunk0 9y ago
No they compete for unicorns. Normal developers who were privileged enough to be born in silicon valley and go to mit/Stanford/Caltech and aren't willing to work 16 out 24 hours of the day might as well not apply because you just get told to fuck off in every application
- ironjunkie 9y ago
  For the past decade I made it very clear during interviews that I value work-life balance and that in fact it increases my overall productivity. I was never told to fuck-off (And I'm in SV). In fact any company that "requires" (explicitely or implicitely) employees to work more than 8-9 hours a day should be seen as a huge red flag IMO.
  - sillysaurus3 9y ago
    This supposes you can afford to get a job elsewhere. Most people need a job now.
    - phkahler 9y ago
      Having and enforcing personal boundaries will change your life. People will respect you for it too, not turn you away.
      - AstralStorm 9y ago
        You will not respect yourself even when your wallet is empty. That said, it is currently reasonably easy to switch the job in our area.
    - eru 9y ago
      That's why you (a) interview in batches, and (b) even after you have taken a shitty job that you needed _now_ you keep interviewing. In the longer run: build up some emergency funds; and always keep interviewing as a low intensity background activity, so you have offers before you need them.
empath75 9y ago
I can totally understand why people wouldn’t enjoy being a software developer and would leave it for better opportunities if they could, but they should at least be aware what an amazing privilege it is, in the world today and in the history of the world to earn a living from thinking.

tboyd47 9y ago

The churn rate is also high on most software teams. In some cases, successful companies struggle to find candidates because all the good people have worked there before and ran away. One of the brightest developers I've worked with quit after 3 weeks at my company because they were underpaying her and wouldn't give her a raise. This same company complained regularly of not being able to find good talent. Employers think they hold all the leverage and can treat developers how they want. They really don't. Why do you think half of software projects fail to deliver?

sidlls 9y ago
> Why do you think half of software projects fail to deliver? A number of reasons: 1. Bikeshedding over the tech stack 2. A glut of CS grads who see a bunch of nails to hit with their textbook and data structures and algorithms knowledge failing to engage in a proper engineering process 3. Poorly defined requirements (blame aplenty to go around here: product development giving insufficient thought to the product details, sales over promising, and "engineers" failing to contribute by treating partnering with these folks as an onerous chore rather than a necessary task) 4. Insufficient resources And many more, I'm sure. Developers aren't blameless, here. In fact over the last couple of years I've come to see them as being at least as much to blame as non-technical people, perhaps even more so.
Consultant32452 9y ago
>quit after 3 weeks at my company because they were underpaying her and wouldn't give her a raise. Why would she have accepted an offer she felt was too low?
- tboyd47 9y ago
  Why wouldn't she? Maybe she wanted to get her foot in the door. The point I'm trying to make is that the company needed her more than she needed them.
  - Consultant32452 9y ago
    >Why wouldn't she? Because it's unethical to agree to work for a rate you're not actually willing to work for. She wasted a lot of people's time and resources to bring her on board for those three weeks. >The point I'm trying to make is that the company needed her more than she needed them. I wouldn't want to work with a person who accepts an offer and then THREE WEEKS later starts demanding raises, no matter what their skill level.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - tboyd47 9y ago
      Like I said, maybe she knew her worth and just wanted to get her foot in the door. I never said she asked for a raise. She just found a better offer elsewhere, and probably would had stayed for the right counteroffer. I wouldn't want to work with a person who puts their own ideas about when it's appropriate to expect a raise over keeping bright people. She didn't waste anyone's time; unlike most, she was productive from day one to the day she left. The company was wasting their own time by optimizing for low compensation and not engineering acumen. Companies have no problem staffing projects they know will be canceled soon, or projects that are underfunded. It's a dog eat dog world, I'm afraid.
      - heimidal 9y ago

cyberpunk0 9y ago

No they compete for unicorns. Normal developers who were privileged enough to be born in silicon valley and go to mit/Stanford/Caltech and aren't willing to work 16 out 24 hours of the day might as well not apply because you just get told to fuck off in every application

ironjunkie 9y ago
For the past decade I made it very clear during interviews that I value work-life balance and that in fact it increases my overall productivity. I was never told to fuck-off (And I'm in SV). In fact any company that "requires" (explicitely or implicitely) employees to work more than 8-9 hours a day should be seen as a huge red flag IMO.
- sillysaurus3 9y ago
  This supposes you can afford to get a job elsewhere. Most people need a job now.
  - phkahler 9y ago
    Having and enforcing personal boundaries will change your life. People will respect you for it too, not turn you away.
    - AstralStorm 9y ago
      You will not respect yourself even when your wallet is empty. That said, it is currently reasonably easy to switch the job in our area.
  - eru 9y ago
    That's why you (a) interview in batches, and (b) even after you have taken a shitty job that you needed _now_ you keep interviewing. In the longer run: build up some emergency funds; and always keep interviewing as a low intensity background activity, so you have offers before you need them.

empath75 9y ago

I can totally understand why people wouldn’t enjoy being a software developer and would leave it for better opportunities if they could, but they should at least be aware what an amazing privilege it is, in the world today and in the history of the world to earn a living from thinking.