7 ms·

Ellen Ullman on the importance of making algorithms accessible to the public

50 points by fagnerbrack 9y ago

dijit 9y ago
She strikes me as a person who has a lot of interesting things to say, I haven't read her books so I thank the author for the exposure. However, if I had one criticism it would be that the interview and resulting article focus quite a bit on her being a victim of prejudice rather than focusing on the great work she has done. But maybe that's me.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- mcphage 9y ago
  I recently finished her “Close to the Machine”, and I loved it.
afarrell 9y ago
> The beauty of language is that we can be imprecise and still be understood. And the terrifying thing about language is that we can still strive to be precise and yet (perhaps even unknowingly) be wildly misunderstood...perhaps malevolently. I've heard someone describe programming as telling a very precise story to a very stupid human. However, I think it would be better to describe a compiler as a more humble listener. One who is willing to say "I'm sorry, you just told me to multiply a string, and I think I'm misunderstanding you." Thinking of compiler errors as an expression of humility can explain the comfort one finds in a stronger type system. It is the same comfort one finds by not speaking publicly on twitter but speaking to a person who has the charity to say "huh? I think you just said this thing that sounds wildly offensive, and I think I'm misunderstanding you."
- auggierose 9y ago
  I don't think ascribing humility to a piece of code makes any kind of sense.
santaragolabs 9y ago
Tangibly related due to it being Ellen Ullman. Oh wow. So I read "The Bug" of hers just after it came out (14 years ago) and it's such a poignant read about someone being slowly driven mad because he can't find a very peculiar bug which unpredictably haunts the sales people demo'ing their product. It's a great read and I highly recommend it to anyone here. The technical accuracy is hilarious too but you don't need to be a programmer whatsoever to understand the novel. I won't spoil the reveal of the actual bug or the ending but it's very much worth it. After reading it I loaned my hardcover copy out to a guy named Boris when I told him how much I liked it. Boris; I don't know where you are and what you're up to nowadays; but if you somehow end up reading this; I kinda want it back. Ping me.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  http://blog.woodpie.com/the-man-who-shared-his-books-and-multiplied-them/ http://blog.woodpie.com/the-man-who-shared-his-books-and-mul...
YouAreGreat 9y ago
Can someone point me to what the argument here is for why "hackers need the humanities"? I can't seem to find it at the link.
- torpcoms 9y ago
  She is only asked about it in the last question, and mentions a New York City politician wanting open source algorithms: > Algorithms make decisions all through his borough, the East Bronx, including where children go to school, where police patrols are assigned, and the schedule for garbage pickup. Which seems a bit bizarre, open source algorithms would be nice, but the tie in to 'the humanities' seems tenuous at best.
- duggan 9y ago
  Perhaps it was left out in editing, or is made in Ullman's recently published book Life in Code: A Personal History of Technology.
- nhebb 9y ago
  In the article, she never directly states that hackers need to study the humanities. What she was basically saying - in the part about Vacca - is that there needs to be human oversight to algorithms that affect public policies (school districting, police paroles, ...). So the implication, in that example, is that programmers should work with people in the social sciences to deliver solutions that may not be algorithmically optimal, but better meet the needs of the community.
  - torpcoms 9y ago
    > may not be algorithmically optimal, but better meet the needs of the community Yeah, that sounds a bit like a blank check for someone to corrupt the generated output under the guise of a nebulous "It's better for our community" while scaremongering about the big bad algorithm.
    - nhebb 9y ago
      Corruption could happen in any case, but I still agree with having human oversight [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_models_are_wrong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_models_are_wrong
iainmerrick 9y ago
This is a nice little interview, but the title is very misleading! The word "humanities" only appears once outside the title and the answer doesn't really address the title's claim. I think it's an interesting topic, though. Do tech companies need more humanities grads? I'm skeptical because plenty of other industries have caused their own social problems, and the humanities haven't saved them. Look at advertising, which was originally built by artists rather than hackers. It may well be true that big tech companies need to be more socially aware and environmentally conscious, but that doesn't mean "the humanities" is necessarily the answer.
- torpcoms 9y ago
  I think big tech companies are perfectly aware of how people react to their actions.
  - ikeyany 9y ago
    In fact, do they not study reactions in order to maximize the amount of time spent on their platforms?
- pjonesdotca 9y ago
  Actually modern advertising ( post WW2 ) was built by psychologists - the artists just dressed up the intentions. Edward Bernays pivoted from being a propagandist to advertising and virtually created the foundation for Madison Avenue as we understand it. Until social media and it's dopamine manipulation strategies, advertising was focused on the manipulation of the viewer.
  - iainmerrick 9y ago
    Huh, interesting! I was under the impression that the typical ad executive of the 50s and 60s would have studied philosophy or classics or something like that -- wannabe writers and artists who got tempted into high-paying jobs on Madison Avenue, similar to today's wannabe mathematicians and physicists who end up working at tech companies and hedge funds. But maybe that's an incorrect stereotype.
Upvoter33 9y ago
I would love to see an article on this topic - this one is not it though. The reason: we struggle at many major universities to determine this balance. On the one hand, students need a lot of CS in order to become mildly proficient; there is just so much to learn. On the other, school is a last chance to expose students to some of the big ideas of the world, the stuff (as Keating says in Dead Poets) that makes life worth living. How can you do both in 4 short years?
- mcphage 9y ago
  > On the one hand, students need a lot of CS in order to become mildly proficient Most of the CS students learn in school will be obsolete in a few years, and they probably won’t be using it in their job anyway. But the humanities they learn will be useful their whole lives.
  - yareally 9y ago
    If all one gains from a CS degree is knowing a few programming languages, they either weren't paying attention or their school's program was less than stellar.
  - adamnemecek 9y ago
    That’s just not true.
  - jdietrich 9y ago
    If it becomes obsolete, then it isn't computer science.
    - KirinDave 9y ago
      We could argue quicksort could be rendered obsolete soon.
      - metaobject 9y ago
        Obsolete or not, I'd hope it remains in the collection of sorting algorithms tht are presented to students in undergraduate algorithms course. It's instructive to compare and contrast the strengths and weaknesses of these various approaches.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
internetman55 9y ago
Everyone needs the humanities. You go to Princeton and you're gonna find Brian Kernighan teaching computer science and digital humanities crossover class and explaining tech basics to the 'educated laymen'. The people at the top of the field know this; why haven't the rest of us figured this out yet?

50 points by fagnerbrack 9y ago

She strikes me as a person who has a lot of interesting things to say, I haven't read her books so I thank the author for the exposure. However, if I had one criticism it would be that the interview and resulting article focus quite a bit on her being a victim of prejudice rather than focusing on the great work she has done. But maybe that's me.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
mcphage 9y ago
I recently finished her “Close to the Machine”, and I loved it.

afarrell 9y ago

> The beauty of language is that we can be imprecise and still be understood. And the terrifying thing about language is that we can still strive to be precise and yet (perhaps even unknowingly) be wildly misunderstood...perhaps malevolently. I've heard someone describe programming as telling a very precise story to a very stupid human. However, I think it would be better to describe a compiler as a more humble listener. One who is willing to say "I'm sorry, you just told me to multiply a string, and I think I'm misunderstanding you." Thinking of compiler errors as an expression of humility can explain the comfort one finds in a stronger type system. It is the same comfort one finds by not speaking publicly on twitter but speaking to a person who has the charity to say "huh? I think you just said this thing that sounds wildly offensive, and I think I'm misunderstanding you."

auggierose 9y ago
I don't think ascribing humility to a piece of code makes any kind of sense.

santaragolabs 9y ago

Tangibly related due to it being Ellen Ullman. Oh wow. So I read "The Bug" of hers just after it came out (14 years ago) and it's such a poignant read about someone being slowly driven mad because he can't find a very peculiar bug which unpredictably haunts the sales people demo'ing their product. It's a great read and I highly recommend it to anyone here. The technical accuracy is hilarious too but you don't need to be a programmer whatsoever to understand the novel. I won't spoil the reveal of the actual bug or the ending but it's very much worth it. After reading it I loaned my hardcover copy out to a guy named Boris when I told him how much I liked it. Boris; I don't know where you are and what you're up to nowadays; but if you somehow end up reading this; I kinda want it back. Ping me.

jacquesm 9y ago
http://blog.woodpie.com/the-man-who-shared-his-books-and-multiplied-them/ http://blog.woodpie.com/the-man-who-shared-his-books-and-mul...

YouAreGreat 9y ago

Can someone point me to what the argument here is for why "hackers need the humanities"? I can't seem to find it at the link.

torpcoms 9y ago
She is only asked about it in the last question, and mentions a New York City politician wanting open source algorithms: > Algorithms make decisions all through his borough, the East Bronx, including where children go to school, where police patrols are assigned, and the schedule for garbage pickup. Which seems a bit bizarre, open source algorithms would be nice, but the tie in to 'the humanities' seems tenuous at best.
duggan 9y ago
Perhaps it was left out in editing, or is made in Ullman's recently published book Life in Code: A Personal History of Technology.
nhebb 9y ago
In the article, she never directly states that hackers need to study the humanities. What she was basically saying - in the part about Vacca - is that there needs to be human oversight to algorithms that affect public policies (school districting, police paroles, ...). So the implication, in that example, is that programmers should work with people in the social sciences to deliver solutions that may not be algorithmically optimal, but better meet the needs of the community.
- torpcoms 9y ago
  > may not be algorithmically optimal, but better meet the needs of the community Yeah, that sounds a bit like a blank check for someone to corrupt the generated output under the guise of a nebulous "It's better for our community" while scaremongering about the big bad algorithm.
  - nhebb 9y ago
    Corruption could happen in any case, but I still agree with having human oversight [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_models_are_wrong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_models_are_wrong

iainmerrick 9y ago

This is a nice little interview, but the title is very misleading! The word "humanities" only appears once outside the title and the answer doesn't really address the title's claim. I think it's an interesting topic, though. Do tech companies need more humanities grads? I'm skeptical because plenty of other industries have caused their own social problems, and the humanities haven't saved them. Look at advertising, which was originally built by artists rather than hackers. It may well be true that big tech companies need to be more socially aware and environmentally conscious, but that doesn't mean "the humanities" is necessarily the answer.

torpcoms 9y ago
I think big tech companies are perfectly aware of how people react to their actions.
- ikeyany 9y ago
  In fact, do they not study reactions in order to maximize the amount of time spent on their platforms?
pjonesdotca 9y ago
Actually modern advertising ( post WW2 ) was built by psychologists - the artists just dressed up the intentions. Edward Bernays pivoted from being a propagandist to advertising and virtually created the foundation for Madison Avenue as we understand it. Until social media and it's dopamine manipulation strategies, advertising was focused on the manipulation of the viewer.
- iainmerrick 9y ago
  Huh, interesting! I was under the impression that the typical ad executive of the 50s and 60s would have studied philosophy or classics or something like that -- wannabe writers and artists who got tempted into high-paying jobs on Madison Avenue, similar to today's wannabe mathematicians and physicists who end up working at tech companies and hedge funds. But maybe that's an incorrect stereotype.

Upvoter33 9y ago

I would love to see an article on this topic - this one is not it though. The reason: we struggle at many major universities to determine this balance. On the one hand, students need a lot of CS in order to become mildly proficient; there is just so much to learn. On the other, school is a last chance to expose students to some of the big ideas of the world, the stuff (as Keating says in Dead Poets) that makes life worth living. How can you do both in 4 short years?

mcphage 9y ago
> On the one hand, students need a lot of CS in order to become mildly proficient Most of the CS students learn in school will be obsolete in a few years, and they probably won’t be using it in their job anyway. But the humanities they learn will be useful their whole lives.
- yareally 9y ago
  If all one gains from a CS degree is knowing a few programming languages, they either weren't paying attention or their school's program was less than stellar.
- adamnemecek 9y ago
  That’s just not true.
- jdietrich 9y ago
  If it becomes obsolete, then it isn't computer science.
  - KirinDave 9y ago
    We could argue quicksort could be rendered obsolete soon.
    - metaobject 9y ago
      Obsolete or not, I'd hope it remains in the collection of sorting algorithms tht are presented to students in undergraduate algorithms course. It's instructive to compare and contrast the strengths and weaknesses of these various approaches.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

internetman55 9y ago

Everyone needs the humanities. You go to Princeton and you're gonna find Brian Kernighan teaching computer science and digital humanities crossover class and explaining tech basics to the 'educated laymen'. The people at the top of the field know this; why haven't the rest of us figured this out yet?