5 ms·

“Full understand”: The new language of the Lesvos refugee camp

39 points by colinscape 9y ago

toomanybeersies 9y ago
I don't like to complain about the grammar or formatting of things posted on HN, because usually people here should be clever enough to figure out how to read it. But this article was really hard to read. The author needs to do a better job of enclosing examples in quotes, it's hard to parse what's article, and what's example quotes. > Thus speak often does the work of say, tell and ask, as in I speak him why? I cannot parse that sentence easily, because I struggle to understand what's an example and what's not. > Thus "speak" often does the work of "say", "tell" and "ask", as in "I speak him why?" Now that, I can understand reasonably easily, just by adding quotes. Even better: > Thus "speak" often does the work of "say", "tell", and "ask". For example: "I speak him why?" Change a couple of words and add some more grammar, and it's crystal clear what the author is trying to convey.
- ramy_d 9y ago
  very much agreed. I had to re-read several times this sentence at the very begining: > To commonly stands in for other prepositions such as at, in or on:
- golemotron 9y ago
  I noticed the same. It was funny given the topic of the article.
- lolc 9y ago
  Part if its charm is the mixing of grammars. I rather liked it the way it was. Even if I had to re-read some sentences.
- cooper12 9y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use%E2%80%93mention_distinction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use%E2%80%93mention_distinctio...
Havoc 9y ago
Reminds me of Fanagalo [0] - South African mines employed workers from all over the place - tower of babel type. Fanagalo even means literally "Do-Like-I-Do". [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanagalo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanagalo
rad_gruchalski 9y ago
Why is the place described in the article referred to as a prison and detention camp? Nobody imprisoned these people and nobody sent them there as a form of punishment.
- kiliantics 9y ago
  When you arrive as a refugee, you are effectively treated as a prisoner. You are not allowed to move freely, you are not allowed to earn money, you often can't even cook for yourself. People who arrive in such situations are usually stuck in these places for years. It's a totally dehumanising existence. I don't know if it is intended that way, like a deterrent, but it sure seems like a punishment. These people were just trying to leave the hell of their home countries and find something better for their families. Often the horrors they are fleeing are a consequence of the former meddlings of actors from Western states. And look at how we in the West treat them when they come as a final resort.
  - outis 9y ago
    Violence, poverty and deprivation are the state of nature. The way all the evils of the world are laid at the feet of the West has no rational basis. The counterfactual against which West influence is compared is always a blissful utopia that never existed and never could have existed. If you want to blame the refugees on what the West did, how about the fact that most of these people (most of whom are economic migrants, by the way) would literally not have existed without Western science and technology? Check out the population graphs, look at how many people the land could support before modern medicine, the green revolution etc.
    - woodruffw 9y ago
      > Violence, poverty and deprivation are the state of nature. According to Hobbes. Rousseau had some nicer things to say about the state of nature. In either case, we're not in the state of nature: we live in prosperous societies, and we both can and ought to provide humane treatment to those who seek it from us. > If you want to blame the refugees on what the West did, how about the fact that most of these people (most of whom are economic migrants, by the way) would literally not have existed without Western science and technology? What, like algebra[1] and basin irrigation[2]? "Western science and technology" is built on hundreds of years of near-Eastern and Eastern work. Neither region has any right to claim full responsibility for its fruits. Even if they did, you would need to be wilfully ignorant to minimize our (Europe and the US's) actions in the Middle East. The fact that we had (and continue to have) a reciprocal exchange of knowledge with them does not excuse what we've done in the modern era. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Musa_al-Khwarizmi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Musa_al-Khwarizmi [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrigation#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrigation#History

39 points by colinscape 9y ago

I don't like to complain about the grammar or formatting of things posted on HN, because usually people here should be clever enough to figure out how to read it. But this article was really hard to read. The author needs to do a better job of enclosing examples in quotes, it's hard to parse what's article, and what's example quotes. > Thus speak often does the work of say, tell and ask, as in I speak him why? I cannot parse that sentence easily, because I struggle to understand what's an example and what's not. > Thus "speak" often does the work of "say", "tell" and "ask", as in "I speak him why?" Now that, I can understand reasonably easily, just by adding quotes. Even better: > Thus "speak" often does the work of "say", "tell", and "ask". For example: "I speak him why?" Change a couple of words and add some more grammar, and it's crystal clear what the author is trying to convey.

ramy_d 9y ago
very much agreed. I had to re-read several times this sentence at the very begining: > To commonly stands in for other prepositions such as at, in or on:
golemotron 9y ago
I noticed the same. It was funny given the topic of the article.
lolc 9y ago
Part if its charm is the mixing of grammars. I rather liked it the way it was. Even if I had to re-read some sentences.
cooper12 9y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use%E2%80%93mention_distinction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use%E2%80%93mention_distinctio...

Havoc 9y ago

Reminds me of Fanagalo [0] - South African mines employed workers from all over the place - tower of babel type. Fanagalo even means literally "Do-Like-I-Do". [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanagalo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanagalo

rad_gruchalski 9y ago

Why is the place described in the article referred to as a prison and detention camp? Nobody imprisoned these people and nobody sent them there as a form of punishment.

kiliantics 9y ago
When you arrive as a refugee, you are effectively treated as a prisoner. You are not allowed to move freely, you are not allowed to earn money, you often can't even cook for yourself. People who arrive in such situations are usually stuck in these places for years. It's a totally dehumanising existence. I don't know if it is intended that way, like a deterrent, but it sure seems like a punishment. These people were just trying to leave the hell of their home countries and find something better for their families. Often the horrors they are fleeing are a consequence of the former meddlings of actors from Western states. And look at how we in the West treat them when they come as a final resort.
- outis 9y ago
  Violence, poverty and deprivation are the state of nature. The way all the evils of the world are laid at the feet of the West has no rational basis. The counterfactual against which West influence is compared is always a blissful utopia that never existed and never could have existed. If you want to blame the refugees on what the West did, how about the fact that most of these people (most of whom are economic migrants, by the way) would literally not have existed without Western science and technology? Check out the population graphs, look at how many people the land could support before modern medicine, the green revolution etc.
  - woodruffw 9y ago
    > Violence, poverty and deprivation are the state of nature. According to Hobbes. Rousseau had some nicer things to say about the state of nature. In either case, we're not in the state of nature: we live in prosperous societies, and we both can and ought to provide humane treatment to those who seek it from us. > If you want to blame the refugees on what the West did, how about the fact that most of these people (most of whom are economic migrants, by the way) would literally not have existed without Western science and technology? What, like algebra[1] and basin irrigation[2]? "Western science and technology" is built on hundreds of years of near-Eastern and Eastern work. Neither region has any right to claim full responsibility for its fruits. Even if they did, you would need to be wilfully ignorant to minimize our (Europe and the US's) actions in the Middle East. The fact that we had (and continue to have) a reciprocal exchange of knowledge with them does not excuse what we've done in the modern era. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Musa_al-Khwarizmi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Musa_al-Khwarizmi [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrigation#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrigation#History