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This may be about the Internet, but doing online "protest" will get us nowhere. Real protest means people going to the streets and making the government afraid

This may be about the Internet, but doing online "protest" will get us nowhere. Real protest means people going to the streets and making the government afraid of real violence. Other than that I don't see any way out.

agf 9y ago
Real protest means going to your local government to fight the internet access monopolies and duopolies. It means voting with your wallet and not supporting the companies pushing for this. It means showing up to vote next time instead of staying home. It means educating your neighbors about what this will mean for all of us. Don't pretend we've exhausted all alternatives to violence -- we haven't. We've barely done any of the things that have been successful in the past at causing change. Suggesting otherwise reduces our power, it doesn't enhance it. Sometimes we lose ground before we make progress. But that doesn't mean we've been defeated.
- umanwizard 9y ago
  Most of those have nothing to do with what “protest” means. It doesn’t just generically mean “participate in democracy”.
  - agf 9y ago
    They're not all what people traditionally mean when they say protest, but the parent was talking about violence -- which I consider a separate category from protest. Definitionally, any act that registers disapproval or objection is protest -- so everything I listed is covered.
- vvanders 9y ago
  When I only have one option for Internet > 5mbps and my job depends on it how do I fight with my wallet? I would happily pay 3x for municipal fiber but it'll never happen. The monopoly of ISPs is what makes this whole free market argument completely unbalanced.
  - isostatic 9y ago
    Halve you looked at gathering like minded people and starting a WISP? The problem with specialist isps is they tend to attract expert users, who are currently subsidised by the average Joe. If your ISP has a 1G port upstream for $3k a month, and 100 customers, you'd be paying $30 for 10mbit each, excluding the rest of the isp's costs, which we'll put at $30/month/customer. So they should charge $60pcm for 10mbit, but instead they sell 500 customers at $32/month, and offer up to 20mbit. This covers the upstream port, but one gives you 2mbit, but it sets the expectation that bandwidth is far cheaper than it really is. Start up a fair ISP and you'll have to win customers who see your option at $60/10mbit // $90/20mbit, or the competitor at $32/20mbit. You'll need to attract 100 customers to pay for your uplink for 3 times the price. You'll then realise those numbers don't really work for a small isp - with 100 customers at $60/month minus upstream you'll have $3k/month for running costs.
- coliveira 9y ago
  Voting with you wallet can only be done in a competitive market. That's why capitalists love to create oligopolies and monopolies.
enraged_camel 9y ago
Unfortunately, Americans today are weak. Everyone is way too self-obsessed with their own pitiful, pathetic lives (family, jobs, house, creature comforts, etc.) to actually take to the streets and protest like their parents and grandparents did during the 60s to fight for their rights and those of others. The Internet, despite its tremendous potential, has proven to be a massive liability, as it gives people the illusion that they have done something useful and constructive after they post angry comments on message boards such as this one. At the end of the day though the truth is this: political representatives will only really represent the populace if they are constantly worried about real backlash, such as if hundreds of people are gathered outside their office blocking access to vehicles, buildings, and so on. On December 17th, 2010, Mohamed Bouazizi famously set himself on fire, which precipitated the Tunisian Revolution and the wider Arab Spring. At this rate, America is going to need equally brave and selfless individuals to make a stand and spark similar movements.
- agf 9y ago
  While civil disobedience etc. are useful forms of protest, we haven't exhausted other avenues, like actually showing up to vote. And the parent post is talking about violence, not just civil disobedience. The act you describe at the end of your post happened in a dictatorship where the people truly had no voice. While we may live in a flawed democracy[1] we're not in the same situation -- we do still have nonviolent ways we can turn things around. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
  - enraged_camel 9y ago
    Yes, which is why I said "at this rate, America is going to need equally brave and selfless individuals to make a stand and spark similar movements." Things haven't reached that point, but will soon.
- maehwasu 9y ago
  Ah yes, the Arab Spring, that beacon of hope and light for the world.
libraryatnight 9y ago
I don't condone violence but I feel like it's coming. It just feels like so few of those representing the public are actually making decisions based on best interests and the rhetoric is getting exhausting. Net Neutrality and beyond - I'm surrounded by people who feel like our government does not represent them and that they are unheard. And, as MLK said "I think that we've got to see that a riot is the language of the unheard."

agf 9y ago

Real protest means going to your local government to fight the internet access monopolies and duopolies. It means voting with your wallet and not supporting the companies pushing for this. It means showing up to vote next time instead of staying home. It means educating your neighbors about what this will mean for all of us. Don't pretend we've exhausted all alternatives to violence -- we haven't. We've barely done any of the things that have been successful in the past at causing change. Suggesting otherwise reduces our power, it doesn't enhance it. Sometimes we lose ground before we make progress. But that doesn't mean we've been defeated.

umanwizard 9y ago
Most of those have nothing to do with what “protest” means. It doesn’t just generically mean “participate in democracy”.
- agf 9y ago
  They're not all what people traditionally mean when they say protest, but the parent was talking about violence -- which I consider a separate category from protest. Definitionally, any act that registers disapproval or objection is protest -- so everything I listed is covered.
vvanders 9y ago
When I only have one option for Internet > 5mbps and my job depends on it how do I fight with my wallet? I would happily pay 3x for municipal fiber but it'll never happen. The monopoly of ISPs is what makes this whole free market argument completely unbalanced.
- isostatic 9y ago
  Halve you looked at gathering like minded people and starting a WISP? The problem with specialist isps is they tend to attract expert users, who are currently subsidised by the average Joe. If your ISP has a 1G port upstream for $3k a month, and 100 customers, you'd be paying $30 for 10mbit each, excluding the rest of the isp's costs, which we'll put at $30/month/customer. So they should charge $60pcm for 10mbit, but instead they sell 500 customers at $32/month, and offer up to 20mbit. This covers the upstream port, but one gives you 2mbit, but it sets the expectation that bandwidth is far cheaper than it really is. Start up a fair ISP and you'll have to win customers who see your option at $60/10mbit // $90/20mbit, or the competitor at $32/20mbit. You'll need to attract 100 customers to pay for your uplink for 3 times the price. You'll then realise those numbers don't really work for a small isp - with 100 customers at $60/month minus upstream you'll have $3k/month for running costs.
coliveira 9y ago
Voting with you wallet can only be done in a competitive market. That's why capitalists love to create oligopolies and monopolies.

enraged_camel 9y ago

Unfortunately, Americans today are weak. Everyone is way too self-obsessed with their own pitiful, pathetic lives (family, jobs, house, creature comforts, etc.) to actually take to the streets and protest like their parents and grandparents did during the 60s to fight for their rights and those of others. The Internet, despite its tremendous potential, has proven to be a massive liability, as it gives people the illusion that they have done something useful and constructive after they post angry comments on message boards such as this one. At the end of the day though the truth is this: political representatives will only really represent the populace if they are constantly worried about real backlash, such as if hundreds of people are gathered outside their office blocking access to vehicles, buildings, and so on. On December 17th, 2010, Mohamed Bouazizi famously set himself on fire, which precipitated the Tunisian Revolution and the wider Arab Spring. At this rate, America is going to need equally brave and selfless individuals to make a stand and spark similar movements.

agf 9y ago
While civil disobedience etc. are useful forms of protest, we haven't exhausted other avenues, like actually showing up to vote. And the parent post is talking about violence, not just civil disobedience. The act you describe at the end of your post happened in a dictatorship where the people truly had no voice. While we may live in a flawed democracy[1] we're not in the same situation -- we do still have nonviolent ways we can turn things around. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
- enraged_camel 9y ago
  Yes, which is why I said "at this rate, America is going to need equally brave and selfless individuals to make a stand and spark similar movements." Things haven't reached that point, but will soon.
maehwasu 9y ago
Ah yes, the Arab Spring, that beacon of hope and light for the world.

libraryatnight 9y ago

I don't condone violence but I feel like it's coming. It just feels like so few of those representing the public are actually making decisions based on best interests and the rhetoric is getting exhausting. Net Neutrality and beyond - I'm surrounded by people who feel like our government does not represent them and that they are unheard. And, as MLK said "I think that we've got to see that a riot is the language of the unheard."