8 ms·

All those experts we've "had enough of"[1], of course. If you think we've got enough faded glory already wait until we set sail on a Brexit low tide and immedia

by orf 9y ago

All those experts we've "had enough of"[1], of course. If you think we've got enough faded glory already wait until we set sail on a Brexit low tide and immediately sink. Rule Britannia! 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGgiGtJk7MA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGgiGtJk7MA

tomjen3 9y ago
The people who voted for Brexit are not going to be hit so bad for this - they weren't the one whos economy was growing and with the workers from Eastern Europe not being allowed in, they will probably get a bit higher salary.
- gpvos 9y ago
  Small businesses will be hit hard, though; e.g., farmers who won't be able to find enough workers to gather the produce off the land.
- beaconstudios 9y ago
  that's a lot of assumptions about people who voted to leave. Not all (or even, I would wager, most) were anti-immigration working class voters. I voted leave, as well as at least 5 other people I know who are open enough about politics to admit it - and they're the minority of people right of Corbyn who are willing to admit it publicly.
  - comstock 9y ago
    I think surveys have shown the leave vote was mostly about immigration: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-latest-news-leave-eu-immigration-main-reason-european-union-survey-a7811651.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-latest... But perhaps you have other data that supports your case?
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - beaconstudios 9y ago
      > Not all (or even, I would wager, most) were anti-immigration working class voters. If you re-read the above you'll see that I didn't claim to have data on the matter. I'm perfectly open to the idea that a large share of the leave vote is anti-immigration (although that sentiment itself has a broad range of meanings from intolerant to reasoned), but my point was to highlight the perception of leave voters as being generally xenophobic members of the working class as being inaccurate or at the very least, a broad stroke of the brush. Through discussing the vote with the other leavers I know, not once was immigration mentioned as a concern, and we all work in average-to-senior software roles, not Dave the van man who rants about Polish people coming for his job.
      - comstock 9y ago
        Oh ok, so just anti-immigration? Not anti-immigration and working class? Your anecdotal evidence is not very useful in a reasonable discussion, and it might be more interesting to have a data based discussion (if you have some data).
        beaconstudios 9y ago
        You seem intent on painting a picture more than reading what I actually wrote: >Through discussing the vote with the other leavers I know, not once was immigration mentioned as a concern You seem to be a bit obsessed with backing everything with data. Do you want me to make a survey for the people I've spoken to? I'm not trying to say "immigration is not the issue and I have proof!", I'm saying that immigration isn't the issue for everyone, and that there are people in the main HN - reading demographic (and more than just me and the 5 I know, although I'm sure you're going to ask for a citation) that A. Don't match the image in your head and B. Didn't vote the way they did as some kind of attempt to lock out immigrants. Your suggestion that discussions can only be had by providing data is just not true. If I were trying to assert a claim large enough to need a sample size then sure, but I'm not.
- peterclary 9y ago
  The numbers I saw, regarding how areas are best positioned to cope with impact of Brexit, suggested that Leave-voting areas would be impacted far worse than Remain-voting areas.
  - neilwilson 9y ago
    Then we just use the enhanced powers of the parliament to shuffle things around. That's sort of the point. The uk has rejected market distribution as a fair mechanism
    - lhopki01 9y ago
      If the enhanced powers of parliament weren't used before to shuffle things around they won't be used after. There were no powers to shuffle things around that parliament didn't already have.
      - neilwilson 9y ago
        After brexit parliamentary decisions are absolute. Before Brexit entities can use the courts and EU law to overturn acts of parliament. So as a simple matter of logic there are things you can do after Brexit you couldn't do before - because parliamentary supremacy has been restored.
        lhopki01 9y ago
        No that is a fundamental misunderstanding of British law and Parliamentary tradition. Entities could not use courts and EU law to overturn acts of parliaments. The most they could do is tell parliament that they are in breach of EU law and so must decide what to do but it is impossible for a court to overturn an act of parliament. The UK parliament is and always has been completely sovereign. Even UK courts can't overturn an act of parliament. The UK isn't like the US where we have a written constitution where all laws need to conform to it. The times that the EU could affect UK law was when parliament had specifically legislated for the EU to have those powers. Even in those cases though it was an act of parliament that gave those powers. The closest argument you could make is that if the UK still didn't want to follow EU law when it was in breach then it'd have to make a decision of paying fines (because it'd legislated to give the EU to right to fine it) or leave the EU.
crdoconnor 9y ago
>All those experts we've "had enough of"[1], All those experts (~90%) predicted a sharp 20% increase in unemployment in the period between the vote and the finalized deal when surveyed by the bank of England just before the vote because of "uncertainty". Unemployment didn't spike a massive 20%. It went DOWN. I'm not even a leaver but seriously... fuck the economists. You're not a smart person if you trust them.
- peterclary 9y ago
  Worth noting that you’re not counted as unemployed if you’re working as little as 1 hour a week, or if you’re on a government training scheme or on Workfare. Given that many people who work are in poverty it would be more meaningful to track the numbers in poverty.
  - crdoconnor 9y ago
    Officially the UK hit the lowest level of unemployment in like 25 years. That's bullshit of course. For the reasons you mentioned. Still didn't go up. Still went down.
  - tonyedgecombe 9y ago
    The figures for underemployment are down as well.
- Izkata 9y ago
  > I'm not even a leaver but seriously... fuck the economists. You're not a smart person if you trust them. My favorite experience when it comes to economists was back in highschool (~15 years ago), when my teacher showed us a recording of two economists arguing with each other (on the news, I think). One was an expert in macroeconomics, the other in microeconomics. They were using the exact same evidence to argue opposite positions.
- X86BSD 9y ago
  There is a reason the word con is in eCONomics.

by orf 9y ago

tomjen3 9y ago

The people who voted for Brexit are not going to be hit so bad for this - they weren't the one whos economy was growing and with the workers from Eastern Europe not being allowed in, they will probably get a bit higher salary.

gpvos 9y ago
Small businesses will be hit hard, though; e.g., farmers who won't be able to find enough workers to gather the produce off the land.
beaconstudios 9y ago
that's a lot of assumptions about people who voted to leave. Not all (or even, I would wager, most) were anti-immigration working class voters. I voted leave, as well as at least 5 other people I know who are open enough about politics to admit it - and they're the minority of people right of Corbyn who are willing to admit it publicly.
- comstock 9y ago
  I think surveys have shown the leave vote was mostly about immigration: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-latest-news-leave-eu-immigration-main-reason-european-union-survey-a7811651.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-latest... But perhaps you have other data that supports your case?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - beaconstudios 9y ago
    > Not all (or even, I would wager, most) were anti-immigration working class voters. If you re-read the above you'll see that I didn't claim to have data on the matter. I'm perfectly open to the idea that a large share of the leave vote is anti-immigration (although that sentiment itself has a broad range of meanings from intolerant to reasoned), but my point was to highlight the perception of leave voters as being generally xenophobic members of the working class as being inaccurate or at the very least, a broad stroke of the brush. Through discussing the vote with the other leavers I know, not once was immigration mentioned as a concern, and we all work in average-to-senior software roles, not Dave the van man who rants about Polish people coming for his job.
    - comstock 9y ago
      Oh ok, so just anti-immigration? Not anti-immigration and working class? Your anecdotal evidence is not very useful in a reasonable discussion, and it might be more interesting to have a data based discussion (if you have some data).
      - beaconstudios 9y ago
        You seem intent on painting a picture more than reading what I actually wrote: >Through discussing the vote with the other leavers I know, not once was immigration mentioned as a concern You seem to be a bit obsessed with backing everything with data. Do you want me to make a survey for the people I've spoken to? I'm not trying to say "immigration is not the issue and I have proof!", I'm saying that immigration isn't the issue for everyone, and that there are people in the main HN - reading demographic (and more than just me and the 5 I know, although I'm sure you're going to ask for a citation) that A. Don't match the image in your head and B. Didn't vote the way they did as some kind of attempt to lock out immigrants. Your suggestion that discussions can only be had by providing data is just not true. If I were trying to assert a claim large enough to need a sample size then sure, but I'm not.
peterclary 9y ago
The numbers I saw, regarding how areas are best positioned to cope with impact of Brexit, suggested that Leave-voting areas would be impacted far worse than Remain-voting areas.
- neilwilson 9y ago
  Then we just use the enhanced powers of the parliament to shuffle things around. That's sort of the point. The uk has rejected market distribution as a fair mechanism
  - lhopki01 9y ago
    If the enhanced powers of parliament weren't used before to shuffle things around they won't be used after. There were no powers to shuffle things around that parliament didn't already have.
    - neilwilson 9y ago
      After brexit parliamentary decisions are absolute. Before Brexit entities can use the courts and EU law to overturn acts of parliament. So as a simple matter of logic there are things you can do after Brexit you couldn't do before - because parliamentary supremacy has been restored.
      - lhopki01 9y ago
        No that is a fundamental misunderstanding of British law and Parliamentary tradition. Entities could not use courts and EU law to overturn acts of parliaments. The most they could do is tell parliament that they are in breach of EU law and so must decide what to do but it is impossible for a court to overturn an act of parliament. The UK parliament is and always has been completely sovereign. Even UK courts can't overturn an act of parliament. The UK isn't like the US where we have a written constitution where all laws need to conform to it. The times that the EU could affect UK law was when parliament had specifically legislated for the EU to have those powers. Even in those cases though it was an act of parliament that gave those powers. The closest argument you could make is that if the UK still didn't want to follow EU law when it was in breach then it'd have to make a decision of paying fines (because it'd legislated to give the EU to right to fine it) or leave the EU.

crdoconnor 9y ago

>All those experts we've "had enough of"[1], All those experts (~90%) predicted a sharp 20% increase in unemployment in the period between the vote and the finalized deal when surveyed by the bank of England just before the vote because of "uncertainty". Unemployment didn't spike a massive 20%. It went DOWN. I'm not even a leaver but seriously... fuck the economists. You're not a smart person if you trust them.

peterclary 9y ago
Worth noting that you’re not counted as unemployed if you’re working as little as 1 hour a week, or if you’re on a government training scheme or on Workfare. Given that many people who work are in poverty it would be more meaningful to track the numbers in poverty.
- crdoconnor 9y ago
  Officially the UK hit the lowest level of unemployment in like 25 years. That's bullshit of course. For the reasons you mentioned. Still didn't go up. Still went down.
- tonyedgecombe 9y ago
  The figures for underemployment are down as well.
Izkata 9y ago
> I'm not even a leaver but seriously... fuck the economists. You're not a smart person if you trust them. My favorite experience when it comes to economists was back in highschool (~15 years ago), when my teacher showed us a recording of two economists arguing with each other (on the news, I think). One was an expert in macroeconomics, the other in microeconomics. They were using the exact same evidence to argue opposite positions.
X86BSD 9y ago
There is a reason the word con is in eCONomics.