7 ms·

Decorative christmas lights kill more people than that because these lights consume more energy than Bitcoin (see conclusion of my post)... if we are willing to

by mrb 9y ago

Decorative christmas lights kill more people than that because these lights consume more energy than Bitcoin (see conclusion of my post)... if we are willing to spend X gigawatts on decorative lights, surely we should be willing to spend X gigawatts on a censorship-resistant decentralized payment system that changes the world.

lobf 9y ago
How do poor people utilize it?
- Crespyl 9y ago
  Roughly as easily as they utilize cell phones.
  - lobf 9y ago
    Less than half of the world uses a smartphone, which I think would be necessary for BC transactions, would it not?
    - r3dk1ng 9y ago
      I do not have a smartphone. I have purchased things using bitcoin. Smartphones are not necessary for BC transactions.
      - sverige 9y ago
        Did you purchase things using bitcoin with some kind of computer other than a smartphone? Or have you discovered a way to use bitcoin without any sort of connection to the internet?
      - Tech-Noir 9y ago
        They meant smartphone as opposed to the classic Nokia-style 'dumbphone'.
  - acdha 9y ago
    By which you mean reliance on someone else's system? The marketing copy for Bitcoin is really big on a democratic trust-free distributed model but from the user's perspective it doesn't seem like there's all that much of a difference between “trust this large financial company in your town” and “trust this collection of mining consortiums in different countries”, other than that the transaction fees are considerably higher and there's no recourse in the case of fraud or errors.
    - drngdds 9y ago
      >there's no recourse in the case of fraud or errors. I think this is the biggest problem with cryptocurrencies. Reversible and traceable transactions are a feature of real money, not a bug.
      - njarboe 9y ago
        Lots of people like non-traceable transactions. Real money (paper notes, gold coins?) has this property. Do you mean credit card or ACH transactions are real money and paper bills are not?
        drngdds 9y ago
        > Do you mean credit card or ACH transactions are real money and paper bills are not? No, I just forgot cash existed for a second.
      - Muromec 9y ago
        >Reversible and traceable transactions are a feature of real money, not a bug. That depends. Having a paper trail of your money in local tax office sometimes means you would be shot in a head and buried in a nearest forest. When armed insurgency happens (and yes, they do happen) all you see in the news is "Country A" occupied parts of "Country B", but on the ground you would have armed people going full-DAESH on local tax offices to see whom to demand ransom from and that would be law-obeying people with paper trail for their earnings.
  - rsynnott 9y ago
    Doesn’t a bitcoin transaction cost a few dollars to put through, these days? There are generally cheaper ways to send money.
    - Muromec 9y ago
      Domestically - yes. Internationally - SWIFT is no cheaper really, but comes with some restrictions. For example I can accept my earned money on account in Ukraine, pay taxes here, but can't send it back to an investment account somewhere EU. This just can't be done. Even more sillier - some time ago it was illegal to merely have an account in foreign bank without obtaining personal license from central bank here. So yes, there are cheaper ways and there are simpler things and there was people who were sent to GULAG for doing "illegal money transactions".
- elmar 9y ago
  unfortunately the subtle technical trade-offs that Bitcoin as, doesn't make it a suitable resource for daily use, from the poor unbanked that live on developing countries, that "use case" will need a new currency developed specifically with this objective. Currently the best real life "use case" of Bitcoin is digital gold, a form of electronic store of value.
- wolco 9y ago
  They buy some from a btc atm forget about it for 10 years. They buy the company they are currently working for.
  - justincormack 9y ago
    That kind of redistribution of wealth is obviously not going to work for everyone, or more likely anyone.
djcapelis 9y ago
> censorship-resistant decentralized payment system Does it achieve any of those words in practice? “Censorship resistant” - Regulatory authorities are seemingly having as much impact on bitcoin as any other financial instrument. “Decentralized” - It is not particularly decentralized. The fact that multiple nodes maintain the same log provides very little decentralization of much of anything. Here’s folks representing 90% of the hashing power of bitcoin on a stage: https://mobile.twitter.com/lopp/status/673398201307664384?lang=en https://mobile.twitter.com/lopp/status/673398201307664384?la... That’s about the same number of people on the board of governors for the US federal reserve, to be fair. But to be fairer, the US dollar is one of 200 or so nation state backed currencies in the world and the federal reserve can’t invalidate transactions that have already occurred using their currency. “Payment system” - It is not doing very well at that at all. Almost every competing payment system offers more predictable and consumer friendly behavior.
- kobeya 9y ago
  Show me a regulator able to prevent bitcoin users who own their own keys from making transactions, or one able to reverse transactions once made and confirmed.
  - djcapelis 9y ago
    Show me a regulator who is able to do any of those things with cash transfers of USD? Bitcoin can though. 51% of users could just outright fork and annul whatever transaction they want, no? In addition, we’ve learned over and over again that non-reversibility is not necessarily even a desirable property to have in a payment system, which is why so many non-cash payment systems have built those in.
    - kobeya 9y ago
      No they have to re-write the history. The cartel of minors does not set the rules of bitcoin. It can only undo transactions by doing more work to write an alternate history. Even with the majority this is often unfeasible in practice.
    - 9y ago
evanlivingston 9y ago
How does it change the world?
- majewsky 9y ago
  Climate change, I guess? :D
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- mrb 9y ago
  Just a few examples: A Brazilian man used Bitcoin to evade a judge's extortion attempt: https://coinvedi.com/brazilian-man-uses-bitcoin-to-evade-judges-extortion/amp/ https://coinvedi.com/brazilian-man-uses-bitcoin-to-evade-jud... Bitcoin would have helped Cyprus citizens avoid banks confiscating their savings: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-10/new-laws-allow-government-seize-savings-deposits-during-crisis http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-10/new-laws-allow-gove... Businesses use Bitcoin to avoid fraud, like this $100,000 charged backs twice: https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/5r9nqi/credit_card_chargebacks_for_100000_dollars/ https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/5r9nqi/credit_... Bitcoin helps people continue to do business online, eg. when alternative PayPal exited an entire country: http://www.wsj.com/articles/paypal-to-exit-turkey-after-regulator-denies-payments-license-1464720574 http://www.wsj.com/articles/paypal-to-exit-turkey-after-regu... Bitcoin helps people have ultimate control on their money, unlike cash when for example a bank blocks a woman from accessing her account: http://www.fox2detroit.com/news/local-news/151623037-story http://www.fox2detroit.com/news/local-news/151623037-story Bitcoin helps people escape abuse from the DEA using civil forfeiture, eg. when they stole $16,000 from a young black man: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/07/dea-asset-forfeiture-joseph-rivers_n_7231744.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/07/dea-asset-forfeitur... More recently, Bitcoin becomes a safe haven when the military executes a coup: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2017/11/20/bitcoin-has-become-zimbabwes-crisis-currency/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2017/11/20/bitcoin-has... And hundreds and thousands of other examples...
  - annabellish 9y ago
ams6110 9y ago
Gold meets your requirements, except for working online.
- emiliobumachar 9y ago
  Literal mining is messy. It's hard to compare, but i'd guess Bitcoin is greener.
Doctor_Fegg 9y ago
Pretty sure most of Britain, at least, would vote for decorative Christmas lights over Bitcoin.
- davrosthedalek 9y ago
  To be fair, they also voted for Brexit, so....
tinus_hn 9y ago
We're perfectly fine with people being exploited and dying while searching for hard transparent shiny rocks, which we can also create synthetically. But then they aren't valuable, except for practical uses.

by mrb 9y ago

lobf 9y ago

How do poor people utilize it?

Crespyl 9y ago
Roughly as easily as they utilize cell phones.
- lobf 9y ago
  Less than half of the world uses a smartphone, which I think would be necessary for BC transactions, would it not?
  - r3dk1ng 9y ago
    I do not have a smartphone. I have purchased things using bitcoin. Smartphones are not necessary for BC transactions.
    - sverige 9y ago
      Did you purchase things using bitcoin with some kind of computer other than a smartphone? Or have you discovered a way to use bitcoin without any sort of connection to the internet?
    - Tech-Noir 9y ago
      They meant smartphone as opposed to the classic Nokia-style 'dumbphone'.
- acdha 9y ago
  By which you mean reliance on someone else's system? The marketing copy for Bitcoin is really big on a democratic trust-free distributed model but from the user's perspective it doesn't seem like there's all that much of a difference between “trust this large financial company in your town” and “trust this collection of mining consortiums in different countries”, other than that the transaction fees are considerably higher and there's no recourse in the case of fraud or errors.
  - drngdds 9y ago
    >there's no recourse in the case of fraud or errors. I think this is the biggest problem with cryptocurrencies. Reversible and traceable transactions are a feature of real money, not a bug.
    - njarboe 9y ago
      Lots of people like non-traceable transactions. Real money (paper notes, gold coins?) has this property. Do you mean credit card or ACH transactions are real money and paper bills are not?
      - drngdds 9y ago
        > Do you mean credit card or ACH transactions are real money and paper bills are not? No, I just forgot cash existed for a second.
    - Muromec 9y ago
      >Reversible and traceable transactions are a feature of real money, not a bug. That depends. Having a paper trail of your money in local tax office sometimes means you would be shot in a head and buried in a nearest forest. When armed insurgency happens (and yes, they do happen) all you see in the news is "Country A" occupied parts of "Country B", but on the ground you would have armed people going full-DAESH on local tax offices to see whom to demand ransom from and that would be law-obeying people with paper trail for their earnings.
- rsynnott 9y ago
  Doesn’t a bitcoin transaction cost a few dollars to put through, these days? There are generally cheaper ways to send money.
  - Muromec 9y ago
    Domestically - yes. Internationally - SWIFT is no cheaper really, but comes with some restrictions. For example I can accept my earned money on account in Ukraine, pay taxes here, but can't send it back to an investment account somewhere EU. This just can't be done. Even more sillier - some time ago it was illegal to merely have an account in foreign bank without obtaining personal license from central bank here. So yes, there are cheaper ways and there are simpler things and there was people who were sent to GULAG for doing "illegal money transactions".
elmar 9y ago
unfortunately the subtle technical trade-offs that Bitcoin as, doesn't make it a suitable resource for daily use, from the poor unbanked that live on developing countries, that "use case" will need a new currency developed specifically with this objective. Currently the best real life "use case" of Bitcoin is digital gold, a form of electronic store of value.
wolco 9y ago
They buy some from a btc atm forget about it for 10 years. They buy the company they are currently working for.
- justincormack 9y ago
  That kind of redistribution of wealth is obviously not going to work for everyone, or more likely anyone.

djcapelis 9y ago

> censorship-resistant decentralized payment system Does it achieve any of those words in practice? “Censorship resistant” - Regulatory authorities are seemingly having as much impact on bitcoin as any other financial instrument. “Decentralized” - It is not particularly decentralized. The fact that multiple nodes maintain the same log provides very little decentralization of much of anything. Here’s folks representing 90% of the hashing power of bitcoin on a stage: https://mobile.twitter.com/lopp/status/673398201307664384?lang=en https://mobile.twitter.com/lopp/status/673398201307664384?la... That’s about the same number of people on the board of governors for the US federal reserve, to be fair. But to be fairer, the US dollar is one of 200 or so nation state backed currencies in the world and the federal reserve can’t invalidate transactions that have already occurred using their currency. “Payment system” - It is not doing very well at that at all. Almost every competing payment system offers more predictable and consumer friendly behavior.

kobeya 9y ago
Show me a regulator able to prevent bitcoin users who own their own keys from making transactions, or one able to reverse transactions once made and confirmed.
- djcapelis 9y ago
  Show me a regulator who is able to do any of those things with cash transfers of USD? Bitcoin can though. 51% of users could just outright fork and annul whatever transaction they want, no? In addition, we’ve learned over and over again that non-reversibility is not necessarily even a desirable property to have in a payment system, which is why so many non-cash payment systems have built those in.
  - kobeya 9y ago
    No they have to re-write the history. The cartel of minors does not set the rules of bitcoin. It can only undo transactions by doing more work to write an alternate history. Even with the majority this is often unfeasible in practice.
  - 9y ago

evanlivingston 9y ago

How does it change the world?

majewsky 9y ago
Climate change, I guess? :D
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
mrb 9y ago
Just a few examples: A Brazilian man used Bitcoin to evade a judge's extortion attempt: https://coinvedi.com/brazilian-man-uses-bitcoin-to-evade-judges-extortion/amp/ https://coinvedi.com/brazilian-man-uses-bitcoin-to-evade-jud... Bitcoin would have helped Cyprus citizens avoid banks confiscating their savings: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-10/new-laws-allow-government-seize-savings-deposits-during-crisis http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-10/new-laws-allow-gove... Businesses use Bitcoin to avoid fraud, like this $100,000 charged backs twice: https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/5r9nqi/credit_card_chargebacks_for_100000_dollars/ https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/5r9nqi/credit_... Bitcoin helps people continue to do business online, eg. when alternative PayPal exited an entire country: http://www.wsj.com/articles/paypal-to-exit-turkey-after-regulator-denies-payments-license-1464720574 http://www.wsj.com/articles/paypal-to-exit-turkey-after-regu... Bitcoin helps people have ultimate control on their money, unlike cash when for example a bank blocks a woman from accessing her account: http://www.fox2detroit.com/news/local-news/151623037-story http://www.fox2detroit.com/news/local-news/151623037-story Bitcoin helps people escape abuse from the DEA using civil forfeiture, eg. when they stole $16,000 from a young black man: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/07/dea-asset-forfeiture-joseph-rivers_n_7231744.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/07/dea-asset-forfeitur... More recently, Bitcoin becomes a safe haven when the military executes a coup: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2017/11/20/bitcoin-has-become-zimbabwes-crisis-currency/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2017/11/20/bitcoin-has... And hundreds and thousands of other examples...
- annabellish 9y ago

ams6110 9y ago

Gold meets your requirements, except for working online.

emiliobumachar 9y ago
Literal mining is messy. It's hard to compare, but i'd guess Bitcoin is greener.

Doctor_Fegg 9y ago

Pretty sure most of Britain, at least, would vote for decorative Christmas lights over Bitcoin.

davrosthedalek 9y ago
To be fair, they also voted for Brexit, so....

tinus_hn 9y ago

We're perfectly fine with people being exploited and dying while searching for hard transparent shiny rocks, which we can also create synthetically. But then they aren't valuable, except for practical uses.