5 ms·

I have similar issues with Edge on Windows. When it auto completes a webpage, it will do a bing search instead and have that as it's top result. Personally, I

by kop316 9y ago

I have similar issues with Edge on Windows. When it auto completes a webpage, it will do a bing search instead and have that as it's top result. Personally, I think it's done on purpose, as every time it searches, it counts as a search in Bing, and that way they can use that to show how many people use Bing to charge more for advertisers.

CydeWeys 9y ago
I believe you might be right about the why. Windows used to be optimized around user experience. The deal was, I pay my $200, and I get a good operating system. Now, I still pay my $200, but what I'm getting is an operating system optimized to generate further revenue from me, at the expense of basic usability. This might be acceptable in a F2P model, but not when I've paid good money for it! Meanwhile, all this stuff just works on desktop Linux, because its goal is still to optimize user experience rather than some monetization metric at the expense of usability.
- ska 9y ago
  Windows used to be optimized around user experience. Are you sure that wasn't MacOS ? I can't think of a time in recent memory I would describe windows as focused around user experience, it has always had dark corners.
  - eitland 9y ago
    Believe it or not: Many of us far prefer Windows to MacOS. And it's not just old habits: I came to the various linux desktop environments after Windows and i still prefer some of them over both Windows and MacOS. (Spent almost 3 years on Mac. Started as an enthusiastic user. Left really disillusioned. Have later come to the conclusion that it is really great and I'm just incompatible:-)
    - 8ytecoder 9y ago
      Yeah, if you have never used another OS, MacOS seems like the best. But when even the simplest pro things don't work, it gets beyond annoying. Some examples - Cut, Paste files; Shift select files; Minimise and how it works with Cmd+Tab; Maximise the way it works now. I need something like BetterTouchTool to even tolerate MacOS. It's the terminal (Ubuntu on Windows is great but still needs more work) and the quality hardware that's keeping me on Mac.
      - majewsky 9y ago
        Hell yeah. I had to work with a Macbook for 3 years now, and I long for next week when my new non-Macbook finally arrives in the office.
      - simonh 9y ago
        Some of that behaviour is a bit awkward, but then there are amazing magical jewels like Automator and active folders. But window management on Windows is a pain now with auto-snapping and the stupid charms thing or whatever it is popping up all the time.
        hirsin 9y ago
        Charms? Like the sidebar? That dies with Windows 8. There's a selection of other windows that appears if you snap something, but if you ignore it it goes away.
        pzone 9y ago
        It can also be disabled in the taskbar settings.
      - setpatchaddress 9y ago
        > Shift select files I don't get this one. Do you not like that it's different from Windows; do you not know that the feature exists; something else? <http://osxdaily.com/2013/09/16/select-multiple-files-mac-os-x/> http://osxdaily.com/2013/09/16/select-multiple-files-mac-os-...
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - ska 9y ago
      See my added comment - this had nothing to do with user preference or any judgement on which system was "better".
    - skygazer 9y ago
      When you've run an obstacle course to fluency, often a Stockholm syndrome sets in, and you think this is the best obstacle course. It changes you; how you reason, predict and judge. It become natural and intuitive. Your neural net overfits. Other obstacle courses seem arbitrary and unreasoned. They inspire disbelief and derision.
  - CydeWeys 9y ago
    Up through 7, ignoring the occasional sucky release like ME or Vista that you could simply skip, Windows was quite good. I liked it more than MacOS. Something changed after 7 though, and it's no longer trying to be a good desktop OS that puts the user's needs first.
    - 0xcde4c3db 9y ago
      What changed is that they're trying to become more like Apple or Google in that users buy a series of "Windows devices" and have them tied to their Microsoft Account so that it's linked into all the cloud services like Windows Store, OneDrive, Office 365, etc.. While they haven't actually removed support for local accounts, they've added progressively more dark patterns to encourage people to log in to Windows with a Microsoft Account instead. Last time I looked, there was an outright warning against using local accounts if you create one during the install process (specifically, that if you forget your password Microsoft can't reset it for you).
  - majormajor 9y ago
    It's hard to undersell how massive a usability improvement the Start menu was compared to System 7 installed-application-launching, where you had to either manually mess with aliases or just root around the Finder each time.
    - kalleboo 9y ago
      Well System 7.5 came out around the same time and bundled the hierarchical Apple Menu (which IIRC was some shareware they acquired), into which everyone stuck an alias of their Applications folder, resulting in a pretty similar (if somewhat less fully featured) UI.
  - ska 9y ago
    Update as I can't edit original. This was not meant as a comment on the preference between MacOS and Windows, or the user experience. What I am questioning was the assertion that UX was the major engineering driver for MS in building windows. i.e. "optimized for". While I can buy the argument that apple's engineering was driven by UX (for good or for ill) it doesn't seem to me that this was true for Microsoft. Not that they never think of UX, but it is sometimes trumped by other concerns.
    - tjoff 9y ago
      Actually MS has had really consistent and great UX. To the point where any slightly computer-literate person would get an intuition about where something ought to be located and be almost always correct. It is not as beginner-friendly as apples products, but far more user-friendly.
      - ska 9y ago
        My main work machine is windows - I wouldn’t go that far though I think I know where you are coming from. From where I sit some of their engineering decisions seem much more driven by platform goals, etc, rather than user experience.
        CydeWeys 9y ago
        Which version of Windows are you using at work? It has definitely gone downhill since Windows 7, hence this entire conversation. I'm curious if you could expand on the platform goals and how that has affected things.
      - kalleboo 9y ago
        Could see the argument that Windows is as user-friendly (I would disagree, but I could see it), and as consistent (all OSes have their weird UI hangups) but not "far more". Last time I used Windows it was more inconsistent than ever, with two completely separate environments (metro and whatever they call the classic one), and three control panels (to which their answer is to shrug and say "just use the search box") Microsoft does have good UX though - in the Office team. Just not in Windows.

by kop316 9y ago

CydeWeys 9y ago

I believe you might be right about the why. Windows used to be optimized around user experience. The deal was, I pay my $200, and I get a good operating system. Now, I still pay my $200, but what I'm getting is an operating system optimized to generate further revenue from me, at the expense of basic usability. This might be acceptable in a F2P model, but not when I've paid good money for it! Meanwhile, all this stuff just works on desktop Linux, because its goal is still to optimize user experience rather than some monetization metric at the expense of usability.

ska 9y ago
Windows used to be optimized around user experience. Are you sure that wasn't MacOS ? I can't think of a time in recent memory I would describe windows as focused around user experience, it has always had dark corners.
- eitland 9y ago
  Believe it or not: Many of us far prefer Windows to MacOS. And it's not just old habits: I came to the various linux desktop environments after Windows and i still prefer some of them over both Windows and MacOS. (Spent almost 3 years on Mac. Started as an enthusiastic user. Left really disillusioned. Have later come to the conclusion that it is really great and I'm just incompatible:-)
  - 8ytecoder 9y ago
    Yeah, if you have never used another OS, MacOS seems like the best. But when even the simplest pro things don't work, it gets beyond annoying. Some examples - Cut, Paste files; Shift select files; Minimise and how it works with Cmd+Tab; Maximise the way it works now. I need something like BetterTouchTool to even tolerate MacOS. It's the terminal (Ubuntu on Windows is great but still needs more work) and the quality hardware that's keeping me on Mac.
    - majewsky 9y ago
      Hell yeah. I had to work with a Macbook for 3 years now, and I long for next week when my new non-Macbook finally arrives in the office.
    - simonh 9y ago
      Some of that behaviour is a bit awkward, but then there are amazing magical jewels like Automator and active folders. But window management on Windows is a pain now with auto-snapping and the stupid charms thing or whatever it is popping up all the time.
      - hirsin 9y ago
        Charms? Like the sidebar? That dies with Windows 8. There's a selection of other windows that appears if you snap something, but if you ignore it it goes away.
        pzone 9y ago
        It can also be disabled in the taskbar settings.
    - setpatchaddress 9y ago
      > Shift select files I don't get this one. Do you not like that it's different from Windows; do you not know that the feature exists; something else? <http://osxdaily.com/2013/09/16/select-multiple-files-mac-os-x/> http://osxdaily.com/2013/09/16/select-multiple-files-mac-os-...
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - ska 9y ago
    See my added comment - this had nothing to do with user preference or any judgement on which system was "better".
  - skygazer 9y ago
    When you've run an obstacle course to fluency, often a Stockholm syndrome sets in, and you think this is the best obstacle course. It changes you; how you reason, predict and judge. It become natural and intuitive. Your neural net overfits. Other obstacle courses seem arbitrary and unreasoned. They inspire disbelief and derision.
- CydeWeys 9y ago
  Up through 7, ignoring the occasional sucky release like ME or Vista that you could simply skip, Windows was quite good. I liked it more than MacOS. Something changed after 7 though, and it's no longer trying to be a good desktop OS that puts the user's needs first.
  - 0xcde4c3db 9y ago
    What changed is that they're trying to become more like Apple or Google in that users buy a series of "Windows devices" and have them tied to their Microsoft Account so that it's linked into all the cloud services like Windows Store, OneDrive, Office 365, etc.. While they haven't actually removed support for local accounts, they've added progressively more dark patterns to encourage people to log in to Windows with a Microsoft Account instead. Last time I looked, there was an outright warning against using local accounts if you create one during the install process (specifically, that if you forget your password Microsoft can't reset it for you).
- majormajor 9y ago
  It's hard to undersell how massive a usability improvement the Start menu was compared to System 7 installed-application-launching, where you had to either manually mess with aliases or just root around the Finder each time.
  - kalleboo 9y ago
    Well System 7.5 came out around the same time and bundled the hierarchical Apple Menu (which IIRC was some shareware they acquired), into which everyone stuck an alias of their Applications folder, resulting in a pretty similar (if somewhat less fully featured) UI.
- ska 9y ago
  Update as I can't edit original. This was not meant as a comment on the preference between MacOS and Windows, or the user experience. What I am questioning was the assertion that UX was the major engineering driver for MS in building windows. i.e. "optimized for". While I can buy the argument that apple's engineering was driven by UX (for good or for ill) it doesn't seem to me that this was true for Microsoft. Not that they never think of UX, but it is sometimes trumped by other concerns.
  - tjoff 9y ago
    Actually MS has had really consistent and great UX. To the point where any slightly computer-literate person would get an intuition about where something ought to be located and be almost always correct. It is not as beginner-friendly as apples products, but far more user-friendly.
    - ska 9y ago
      My main work machine is windows - I wouldn’t go that far though I think I know where you are coming from. From where I sit some of their engineering decisions seem much more driven by platform goals, etc, rather than user experience.
      - CydeWeys 9y ago
        Which version of Windows are you using at work? It has definitely gone downhill since Windows 7, hence this entire conversation. I'm curious if you could expand on the platform goals and how that has affected things.
    - kalleboo 9y ago
      Could see the argument that Windows is as user-friendly (I would disagree, but I could see it), and as consistent (all OSes have their weird UI hangups) but not "far more". Last time I used Windows it was more inconsistent than ever, with two completely separate environments (metro and whatever they call the classic one), and three control panels (to which their answer is to shrug and say "just use the search box") Microsoft does have good UX though - in the Office team. Just not in Windows.