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I know this isn't really hacker news, but as a gay hacker, I beg you not to flag this story :-)

by seldo 16y ago

CapitalistCartr 16y ago
I am an ardent supporter and promoter of freedom, civil liberty. I've found that most computer geeks are, way out of proportion to the population at large.
derefr 16y ago
Why not? Not to sound mean, but there are plenty of places online where people could discuss this news; why does HN have to be one of them? Does this community have unique insights into Californian law or gay rights that other communities don't? Does this same news item really need to appear on every online social news site, everywhere, no matter the focus? I guess it's possible that there are people who only read HN, and don't have any other news source whatsoever, and that those people would otherwise miss out on this bit of news—but then, I think those people have chosen to filter out other news sources for a reason :) Edit: I'm just asking for a justification here—if it explicitly isn't Hacker News, what made you want to post it?
- HeyLaughingBoy 16y ago
  Much like Slashdot announcing the start of the Iraq invasion, some things are important enough to be visible elsewhere. Restricting the rights of anyone in our country affects all of us who live here.
  - tome 16y ago
    Not all of us live there.
    - Niten 16y ago
      But enough of us do to make it relevant.
  - TomOfTTB 16y ago
    Prop 8 has nothing to do with people’s rights. I quote from the current California Family Code Section 297.5… Registered domestic partners shall have the same rights, protections, and benefits, and shall be subject to the same responsibilities, obligations, and duties under law, whether they derive from statutes, administrative regulations, court rules, government policies, common law, or any other provisions or sources of law, as are granted to and imposed upon spouses. Prop 8 is just another way for the two sides of the culture war to beat each other over the head.
    - Locke1689 16y ago
      Please read the ruling. I don't think I have ever had to tell this many people to RTFA.
      - TomOfTTB 16y ago
        I did read the ruling and I’m sorry but it doesn’t change anything. The whole premise of the case was built on people claiming they were discriminated against but that IS ALREADY ILLEGAL IN CALIFORNIA. The question presented by the person who made the comment I responded to was “were people being denied specific rights?” and I’m sorry but they aren’t.
        Locke1689 16y ago
        Then I'm sorry but you clearly don't understand Constitutional law. One of the first lines in the article is the proposal that this proposition be rendered as applicable to homosexuals as a suspect class, meaning that the law should be rendered as a judgement under strict scrutiny. The circumstances and testimony clearly supported overturning the law on the basis of strict scrutiny.
    - iandanforth 16y ago
      I suggest reading the decision which rebuts this point, or I can simply point to Brown v Board which enshrined the notion that separate institutions are "inherently unequal." More importantly though I think you miss the extent to which the "rights" provided by the California Family Code fail to encompass the rights protected by the constitution. The right to adopt is orthogonal to the right be free from discrimination and a state sponsored determination of inferiority. As for the culture war, I don't doubt that 100 years from now it will still be going on, under a different name, and with as much validity and import as it has today. This is not a mean or petty distinction being discussed here, but one of lasting societal influence and implication. You have clear disdain for the debate, probably engendered by the disingenuous rhetoric on both sides, however I would urge you to put aside the cynicism for a moment and remember that this really does matter.
- famousactress 16y ago
  He didn't post it. Also, it bumped 'Depression Era Color Photos' out of the number two spot. Doesn't seem very 'HN' either, but I think that's what the up-voting is for.
- seldo 16y ago
  Statistically speaking, somewhere between 4% and 8% of the HN population will be very interested in this news. I'll bet that's a bigger percentage than actually care about Erlang, and we're always hearing about that :-) But seriously, there is no reason, other than it being a really nice piece of news that, as a member of a community, I would like to share with the rest of that community. (And to clarify: I didn't post it, I just voted it up :-) )
  - derefr 16y ago
    I don't think we should be allowing any argument that would also justify people posting cat pictures :) I agree that it's a nice piece of news; I just sometimes wish that HN had the same sort of #foo, #foo-offtopic division that specialized IRC channels usually do. (And I realize—I was addressing the original poster in the context of your comment. :)
    - zain 16y ago
      To answer your question, I posted this on HN because I felt it would lead to interesting comments. The ruling is certainly cause for celebration, but it's also one of the most publicized cases of a judge overturning a majority vote. I wanted to hear how other hackers settled the internal debate of forcefully eliminating bigotry vs. lessening government intervention.
  - seiji 16y ago
    Never underestimate the long-tail of Gay Erlang Programmers (GEPs) on HN. We're everywhere.
  - bmm6o 16y ago
    > Statistically speaking, somewhere between 4% and 8% of the HN population will be very interested in this news If you're using the stats I think you are, you probably mean "directly affected by" the news. As a California resident, I am very interested in this story but I don't need to see it at the top of HN.
- thingie 16y ago
  Are there? Would you really want to discuss this on some general news site?
  - derefr 16y ago
    Well, maybe not any news site, but let's see what's going on on Reddit... hmm, new top story, I see: http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/cxfcs/big_news_prop_8_is_unconstitutional_judge_rules/ http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/cxfcs/big_news_pro...
    - brandon 16y ago
      If you read carefully, the point he was trying to make was that you wouldn't necessarily want to discuss the issue on reddit or Digg. I can't imagine why, though... http://cl.ly/1sDc http://cl.ly/1sDc
Locke1689 16y ago
I think it may be HN material if you actually read the brief. Very interesting (if you can spare the time to read ~130 pages), especially the back and forth in the "expert" testimony (the opposing council's expert was eventually deemed to be unqualified to offer any relevant testimony and mostly selectively quoted texts during trial).

I know this isn't really hacker news, but as a gay hacker, I beg you not to flag this story :-)

by seldo 16y ago

I know this isn't really hacker news, but as a gay hacker, I beg you not to flag this story :-)

I am an ardent supporter and promoter of freedom, civil liberty. I've found that most computer geeks are, way out of proportion to the population at large.

derefr 16y ago

Why not? Not to sound mean, but there are plenty of places online where people could discuss this news; why does HN have to be one of them? Does this community have unique insights into Californian law or gay rights that other communities don't? Does this same news item really need to appear on every online social news site, everywhere, no matter the focus? I guess it's possible that there are people who only read HN, and don't have any other news source whatsoever, and that those people would otherwise miss out on this bit of news—but then, I think those people have chosen to filter out other news sources for a reason :) Edit: I'm just asking for a justification here—if it explicitly isn't Hacker News, what made you want to post it?

HeyLaughingBoy 16y ago
Much like Slashdot announcing the start of the Iraq invasion, some things are important enough to be visible elsewhere. Restricting the rights of anyone in our country affects all of us who live here.
- tome 16y ago
  Not all of us live there.
  - Niten 16y ago
    But enough of us do to make it relevant.
- TomOfTTB 16y ago
  Prop 8 has nothing to do with people’s rights. I quote from the current California Family Code Section 297.5… Registered domestic partners shall have the same rights, protections, and benefits, and shall be subject to the same responsibilities, obligations, and duties under law, whether they derive from statutes, administrative regulations, court rules, government policies, common law, or any other provisions or sources of law, as are granted to and imposed upon spouses. Prop 8 is just another way for the two sides of the culture war to beat each other over the head.
  - Locke1689 16y ago
    Please read the ruling. I don't think I have ever had to tell this many people to RTFA.
    - TomOfTTB 16y ago
      I did read the ruling and I’m sorry but it doesn’t change anything. The whole premise of the case was built on people claiming they were discriminated against but that IS ALREADY ILLEGAL IN CALIFORNIA. The question presented by the person who made the comment I responded to was “were people being denied specific rights?” and I’m sorry but they aren’t.
      - Locke1689 16y ago
        Then I'm sorry but you clearly don't understand Constitutional law. One of the first lines in the article is the proposal that this proposition be rendered as applicable to homosexuals as a suspect class, meaning that the law should be rendered as a judgement under strict scrutiny. The circumstances and testimony clearly supported overturning the law on the basis of strict scrutiny.
  - iandanforth 16y ago
    I suggest reading the decision which rebuts this point, or I can simply point to Brown v Board which enshrined the notion that separate institutions are "inherently unequal." More importantly though I think you miss the extent to which the "rights" provided by the California Family Code fail to encompass the rights protected by the constitution. The right to adopt is orthogonal to the right be free from discrimination and a state sponsored determination of inferiority. As for the culture war, I don't doubt that 100 years from now it will still be going on, under a different name, and with as much validity and import as it has today. This is not a mean or petty distinction being discussed here, but one of lasting societal influence and implication. You have clear disdain for the debate, probably engendered by the disingenuous rhetoric on both sides, however I would urge you to put aside the cynicism for a moment and remember that this really does matter.
famousactress 16y ago
He didn't post it. Also, it bumped 'Depression Era Color Photos' out of the number two spot. Doesn't seem very 'HN' either, but I think that's what the up-voting is for.
seldo 16y ago
Statistically speaking, somewhere between 4% and 8% of the HN population will be very interested in this news. I'll bet that's a bigger percentage than actually care about Erlang, and we're always hearing about that :-) But seriously, there is no reason, other than it being a really nice piece of news that, as a member of a community, I would like to share with the rest of that community. (And to clarify: I didn't post it, I just voted it up :-) )
- derefr 16y ago
  I don't think we should be allowing any argument that would also justify people posting cat pictures :) I agree that it's a nice piece of news; I just sometimes wish that HN had the same sort of #foo, #foo-offtopic division that specialized IRC channels usually do. (And I realize—I was addressing the original poster in the context of your comment. :)
  - zain 16y ago
    To answer your question, I posted this on HN because I felt it would lead to interesting comments. The ruling is certainly cause for celebration, but it's also one of the most publicized cases of a judge overturning a majority vote. I wanted to hear how other hackers settled the internal debate of forcefully eliminating bigotry vs. lessening government intervention.
- seiji 16y ago
  Never underestimate the long-tail of Gay Erlang Programmers (GEPs) on HN. We're everywhere.
- bmm6o 16y ago
  > Statistically speaking, somewhere between 4% and 8% of the HN population will be very interested in this news If you're using the stats I think you are, you probably mean "directly affected by" the news. As a California resident, I am very interested in this story but I don't need to see it at the top of HN.
thingie 16y ago
Are there? Would you really want to discuss this on some general news site?
- derefr 16y ago
  Well, maybe not any news site, but let's see what's going on on Reddit... hmm, new top story, I see: http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/cxfcs/big_news_prop_8_is_unconstitutional_judge_rules/ http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/cxfcs/big_news_pro...
  - brandon 16y ago
    If you read carefully, the point he was trying to make was that you wouldn't necessarily want to discuss the issue on reddit or Digg. I can't imagine why, though... http://cl.ly/1sDc http://cl.ly/1sDc

Locke1689 16y ago

I think it may be HN material if you actually read the brief. Very interesting (if you can spare the time to read ~130 pages), especially the back and forth in the "expert" testimony (the opposing council's expert was eventually deemed to be unqualified to offer any relevant testimony and mostly selectively quoted texts during trial).