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I used to be a Lotus Notes specialist, and one interesting thing I noticed is that from the earliest versions it was designed specifically to be a "step up" fro

I used to be a Lotus Notes specialist, and one interesting thing I noticed is that from the earliest versions it was designed specifically to be a "step up" from a spreadsheet (Lotus of course also made Lotus 1-2-3, which was the original killer-app spreadsheet before Excel took over). Notes still let you see data as rows and columns and had very spreadsheet-like functions, many of which could be transferred directly from Lotus 1-2-3 - but it was a full client-server system which supported decentralized replication, built-in messaging and email, and a solid security model (yes yes I know it was also a crazy confused mess and a UI nightmare but that's a different topic). Back in the day, organizations had teams going around finding the most useful ad-hoc spreadsheets and converting them into simple Lotus Notes databases. Other organizations would sometimes also give staff training in building simple Notes databases - not a whole lot more difficult than doing a spreadsheet - and then have expert teams come in and polish them up as needed. This made business software bottom-up rather than top-down, which turned out to be a whole lot more useful in a lot of cases. In many ways, even after I left the Notes world for PHP and Rails and JS, my career in business software has still mostly been about converting spreadsheets into more "proper" applications. Spreadsheets are the 'blue-green algae' of the software world: the simple base level that's everywhere and surprisingly essential.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
sheetjs 9y ago
> my career in business software has still mostly been about converting spreadsheets into more "proper" applications. Still true for many people in 2017. @patio11 probably said it best: > Every spreadsheet shared in a business is an angel announcing another SaaS app still needs to be built. https://twitter.com/patio11/status/655674551615942657 https://twitter.com/patio11/status/655674551615942657 FWIW we ended up in business software after one of our open source libraries to read and write spreadsheets (https://github.com/sheetjs/js-xlsx https://github.com/sheetjs/js-xlsx, demo http://oss.sheetjs.com/ http://oss.sheetjs.com/) ended up garnering lots of demand from businesses looking to build those "proper" applications
- fjsolwmv 9y ago
  No. An domain-specific SaaS app takes all the power away from the people writing their spreadsheet programs. Only one app is needed, a hosted spreadsheet with backup and versioning an replication. The only domain-specific business is in writing plugins.
  - peatmoss 9y ago
    I agree that purpose-specific tools aren't the answer, unless the question was, "can I have a straight jacket?" Flip side, my feeling is that, if an analysis was worth doing, it's probably worth doing right. And to do it right, it should probably be done in a way that one can show their work. I like where the R community in particular has gone in dropping the barrier to reproducible analysis to roughly the same place as Excel.
    - Jesus_Jones 9y ago
      My friend's startup has a project that matches up with a lot of these requirements, called Coda. It's easy to query data and build visualizations, has a spreadsheet data model, and has an easier programming model. Excel did a great job getting people to "program" their spreadsheets though. I also wonder about google sheets capabilities. It does work so well for many people working on one spreadsheet, except for undo. The major flaw I've seen is undo, because in google sheets it was global undo, not personal undo.
  - barrkel 9y ago
    There's a reason chefs don't use multi-tools; purpose-built tools always beat generic tools when you need to maximize efficiency on a task.
    - njarboe 9y ago
      I would say a chef's knife is the ultimate kitchen multi-tool. Having one great knife you really know how to use for cutting everything is much more efficient than a bunch of different knives.
laythea 9y ago
Maybe I did not appreciate it properly, but I remember using Lotus Notes at my work a few years ago, and I can remember it being the most awful piece of software I have ever used. Admittingly I am not a specialist, more an employee trying to use it to do my job.
- ajlburke 9y ago
  It was pretty awesome for enterprise software in the mid-90s, but the world caught up with it soon after.
  - pjmorris 9y ago
    "You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." In the mid-90's, I thought I was helping by bringing Notes in to the company I worked at, and people seemed to agree. A ticket tracking database we set up seemed to help. Many years later, after I left, I saw a presentation where Notes was cast as the problem, with a website proposed as the solution.
- EpicEng 9y ago
  It is, you're not wrong
- forapurpose 9y ago
  > I can remember it being the most awful piece of software I have ever used Many people seem to say the same thing but the only problem I could ever see (in occasional use) was a non-standard UI which non-technical users had trouble grasping. What made it so awful?
  - laythea 9y ago
    Navigation, the UI, the way the databases where setup. I can remember that even basic things not working the way normal windows applications work (usability related things), but it was so long ago I can't remember the specific things, sorry. Just that it was awful.
  - 9y ago
digi_owl 9y ago
This sounds familiar to my, albeit limited, Microsoft Access experience.
anigbrowl 9y ago
What would you use now if you needed the same sort of functionality? I find myself with some unexpected needs to build databases whose specifications and scope I'm still trying to figure out, and for now I'm missing about in Google sheets and figuring Fusion tables will probably be sufficient, but I'd be interested in any alternatives as long as they're secure and shareable.
- eru 9y ago
  Some combination of things like Python and SQLite would probably go a long way?
Pamar 9y ago
I basically agree - but in my case, instead of Lotus, it was Framework: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framework_(office_suite) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framework_(office_suite) - I think I used versione III and IV, mostly.
technofiend 9y ago
As a Lotus specialist I can see why you'd think Lotus 1-2-3 was the original killer app spreadsheet and as someone who worked retail at the time selling UNIX and Microsoft machines I'd have to say we sold a ton of Lotus 1-2-3. But we have to give Dan Bricklin and Bob Frankston their dues because Visicalc is the original killer app spreadsheet in the literal sense: people used to say they didn't know if Visicalc sold more Apples or if Apple sold more Visicalc. It truly was the program for which people bought the platform.
- ajlburke 9y ago
  You're right - my mistake!

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

sheetjs 9y ago

> my career in business software has still mostly been about converting spreadsheets into more "proper" applications. Still true for many people in 2017. @patio11 probably said it best: > Every spreadsheet shared in a business is an angel announcing another SaaS app still needs to be built. https://twitter.com/patio11/status/655674551615942657 https://twitter.com/patio11/status/655674551615942657 FWIW we ended up in business software after one of our open source libraries to read and write spreadsheets (https://github.com/sheetjs/js-xlsx https://github.com/sheetjs/js-xlsx, demo http://oss.sheetjs.com/ http://oss.sheetjs.com/) ended up garnering lots of demand from businesses looking to build those "proper" applications

fjsolwmv 9y ago
No. An domain-specific SaaS app takes all the power away from the people writing their spreadsheet programs. Only one app is needed, a hosted spreadsheet with backup and versioning an replication. The only domain-specific business is in writing plugins.
- peatmoss 9y ago
  I agree that purpose-specific tools aren't the answer, unless the question was, "can I have a straight jacket?" Flip side, my feeling is that, if an analysis was worth doing, it's probably worth doing right. And to do it right, it should probably be done in a way that one can show their work. I like where the R community in particular has gone in dropping the barrier to reproducible analysis to roughly the same place as Excel.
  - Jesus_Jones 9y ago
    My friend's startup has a project that matches up with a lot of these requirements, called Coda. It's easy to query data and build visualizations, has a spreadsheet data model, and has an easier programming model. Excel did a great job getting people to "program" their spreadsheets though. I also wonder about google sheets capabilities. It does work so well for many people working on one spreadsheet, except for undo. The major flaw I've seen is undo, because in google sheets it was global undo, not personal undo.
- barrkel 9y ago
  There's a reason chefs don't use multi-tools; purpose-built tools always beat generic tools when you need to maximize efficiency on a task.
  - njarboe 9y ago
    I would say a chef's knife is the ultimate kitchen multi-tool. Having one great knife you really know how to use for cutting everything is much more efficient than a bunch of different knives.

laythea 9y ago

Maybe I did not appreciate it properly, but I remember using Lotus Notes at my work a few years ago, and I can remember it being the most awful piece of software I have ever used. Admittingly I am not a specialist, more an employee trying to use it to do my job.

ajlburke 9y ago
It was pretty awesome for enterprise software in the mid-90s, but the world caught up with it soon after.
- pjmorris 9y ago
  "You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." In the mid-90's, I thought I was helping by bringing Notes in to the company I worked at, and people seemed to agree. A ticket tracking database we set up seemed to help. Many years later, after I left, I saw a presentation where Notes was cast as the problem, with a website proposed as the solution.
EpicEng 9y ago
It is, you're not wrong
forapurpose 9y ago
> I can remember it being the most awful piece of software I have ever used Many people seem to say the same thing but the only problem I could ever see (in occasional use) was a non-standard UI which non-technical users had trouble grasping. What made it so awful?
- laythea 9y ago
  Navigation, the UI, the way the databases where setup. I can remember that even basic things not working the way normal windows applications work (usability related things), but it was so long ago I can't remember the specific things, sorry. Just that it was awful.
- 9y ago

digi_owl 9y ago

This sounds familiar to my, albeit limited, Microsoft Access experience.

anigbrowl 9y ago

What would you use now if you needed the same sort of functionality? I find myself with some unexpected needs to build databases whose specifications and scope I'm still trying to figure out, and for now I'm missing about in Google sheets and figuring Fusion tables will probably be sufficient, but I'd be interested in any alternatives as long as they're secure and shareable.

eru 9y ago
Some combination of things like Python and SQLite would probably go a long way?

Pamar 9y ago

I basically agree - but in my case, instead of Lotus, it was Framework: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framework_(office_suite) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framework_(office_suite) - I think I used versione III and IV, mostly.

technofiend 9y ago

As a Lotus specialist I can see why you'd think Lotus 1-2-3 was the original killer app spreadsheet and as someone who worked retail at the time selling UNIX and Microsoft machines I'd have to say we sold a ton of Lotus 1-2-3. But we have to give Dan Bricklin and Bob Frankston their dues because Visicalc is the original killer app spreadsheet in the literal sense: people used to say they didn't know if Visicalc sold more Apples or if Apple sold more Visicalc. It truly was the program for which people bought the platform.

ajlburke 9y ago
You're right - my mistake!