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Well, you may call it surveillance cams but it may not be a bad thing. But as a Chinese, I never feel stressful under these cams in China, but feel unsafe all t

Well, you may call it surveillance cams but it may not be a bad thing. But as a Chinese, I never feel stressful under these cams in China, but feel unsafe all the time walking down the street in SF in the night after moving to US. Purpose matters.

icantdrive55 9y ago
There's kinda of an art to walking at night in San Francisco. Walk with purpose. Don't look like an easy target. Don't park way out of the way to save a few dollars in parking. Don't just expect Cops are paid to protect you--in all reality, they do the bare minimum. Yea--it's not fair.
dogma1138 9y ago
Is SF really that bad?
- kalleboo 9y ago
  Parts of it are
- miller_joe 9y ago
  No
jononor 9y ago
What is the difference?
tbronchain 9y ago
Is it really camera that made the difference? I had a motorbike stolen in Beijing. Police's answer? "Sorry, the camera didn't work". A friend forget his phone in a taxi (who run away, then turned it off when he tried to call it). He left the taxi at a precise crossing with cameras. He went to the police station a very soon after. Police answer? "We couldn't identify the taxi". I have a few more stories like this (like wallet and phones stolen at the ATM). Yes all in China. And I'm not talking about the multiple scams that are very specific to china. Maybe public surveillance camera help preventing armed attacks (but it's never really been a thing in China anyway, and in serious decline in the world in general) and I doubt they can do much more. As you say, purpose matters. I don't believe crime stops with surveillance, it changes. Edit: one thing I forgot to mention, I feel the Chinese state media are doing a very good job at not talking too much about the different crime/problems happening. Western media are doing pretty much the opposite. I think on that precise point, if other method than censorship were used, it's actually a pretty good thing and do make people feel safer.
- mschuster91 9y ago
  > I feel the Chinese state media are doing a very good job at not talking too much about the different crime/problems happening. Western media are doing pretty much the opposite. They're not doing the really opposite thing... many western media outlets tend to focus on crimes committed by migrants or people with a migration background. No one cares if a German beats up his wife, but if a man of turkish descent beats up his wife, the tabloid frontpages are filled with "criminal scum beats up his wife". Crimes committed by foreigners generate clicks and buys, and this even more so given the massive right-wing swing in the western world.
  - tbronchain 9y ago
    Thats quite off topic. The point is, by speaking less of insecurity people feel more safe.
- rahimnathwani 9y ago
  In the UK, a shop that I ran was robbed. The police said the camera outside the ship was mobile, and happened to be pointing the other way at the time. In China, I had a traffic altercation (between me, a pedestrian, and some people who were in a car at the time the altercation started). The police found the video footage and watched it within an hour after I reported it. My point: the plural of anecdote is not data.
  - ttflee 9y ago
    Are you non-east-Asian? Chinese police answers to foreigners so quickly that jokes about foreigner-aided-reporting-to-police-as-a-service are circulated.
    - rahimnathwani 9y ago
      Yes, I'm non-east-Asian. And I reported the incident at a police station in an area where many foreigners live and work.
yosamino 9y ago
> Purpose matters. The point about many of these privacy related issues is that purpose can change. Almost nobody is arguing that it's not a good goal to feel safe on the streets. But there can be an argument made that cameras don't actually increase safety (though they can increase the illusion of safety) and the more important point: Increased safety is only one purpose of many of these cameras. Even if it is the only one right now, all it takes is a shift in political climate, and suddenly they can be used for many other things without, and this is the important bit, changing anything about the cameras themselves. To take up your example of being feeling safe as a Chinese in China (but don't misunderstand me, this is exactly the same in any other country!) probably works because you are not interesting to the people controlling the cameras (and the other surveillance ). But once you aren't aligned with their interests anymore and you start making trouble, these cameras give your opponents tremendous power over you. Privacy doesn't matter if you are aligned with those in power. The power imbalance it perpetuates only starts mattering as you move away from the center of society.
fpoling 9y ago
In Norway where surveillance cameras are still rare and strictly regulated, I can go anywhere and feel safe. That includes a park where drug addicts used to get and sell drugs. For few years I often passed it during the day and night. At worst somebody would ask if I wanted some substance. So I suspect violence is affected much more by culture/policy than cameras. Surely cameras may help, but for them to work one already needs a functional society. For example, cameras do not work when one can bribe police/courts to remove/ignore video evidence, like it happens in Russia.
lettergram 9y ago
I mean... Honestly, if I were Chinese - given the governments past I'd feel safer in SF than China[1][2][3]. Basically, it's similar to Iran or other states where you have to praise the government publicly & constantly - or they will find you, capture you, and probably imprison or kill you. I think one interesting thing I saw at GTC two years ago, was a Chinese firm was building software to watch / track where everyone went through a city. Including what they were doing. This is not a "safety tool" it's a surveillance tool. Sure it can be used to _maybe_ track down attackers after it happens. However, it can be used more effectively to track potential or known dissidents or track what the average person in the population is doing. [1] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/china-billionaires-ceo-disappearing-missing-station-sanctioned-abductions-beijing-security-agencies-a7564896.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/china-billio... [2] https://thediplomat.com/2016/06/china-the-us-and-extrajudicial-abductions/ https://thediplomat.com/2016/06/china-the-us-and-extrajudici... [3] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/17/china-behaving-like-gangster-state-with-bookseller-kidnap-say-hong-kong-politicians https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/17/china-behaving...
jlebrech 9y ago
as long as it cannot be used in divorce court, or by you doctor to check if you haven't been to the donut shop and such private matters. for crime it's great, but if you're a dissident they also know where you've been, or hackers can sell your schedule to unscrupulous people if it's not secure.

icantdrive55 9y ago

There's kinda of an art to walking at night in San Francisco. Walk with purpose. Don't look like an easy target. Don't park way out of the way to save a few dollars in parking. Don't just expect Cops are paid to protect you--in all reality, they do the bare minimum. Yea--it's not fair.

dogma1138 9y ago

Is SF really that bad?

kalleboo 9y ago
Parts of it are
miller_joe 9y ago
No

jononor 9y ago

What is the difference?

tbronchain 9y ago

Is it really camera that made the difference? I had a motorbike stolen in Beijing. Police's answer? "Sorry, the camera didn't work". A friend forget his phone in a taxi (who run away, then turned it off when he tried to call it). He left the taxi at a precise crossing with cameras. He went to the police station a very soon after. Police answer? "We couldn't identify the taxi". I have a few more stories like this (like wallet and phones stolen at the ATM). Yes all in China. And I'm not talking about the multiple scams that are very specific to china. Maybe public surveillance camera help preventing armed attacks (but it's never really been a thing in China anyway, and in serious decline in the world in general) and I doubt they can do much more. As you say, purpose matters. I don't believe crime stops with surveillance, it changes. Edit: one thing I forgot to mention, I feel the Chinese state media are doing a very good job at not talking too much about the different crime/problems happening. Western media are doing pretty much the opposite. I think on that precise point, if other method than censorship were used, it's actually a pretty good thing and do make people feel safer.

mschuster91 9y ago
> I feel the Chinese state media are doing a very good job at not talking too much about the different crime/problems happening. Western media are doing pretty much the opposite. They're not doing the really opposite thing... many western media outlets tend to focus on crimes committed by migrants or people with a migration background. No one cares if a German beats up his wife, but if a man of turkish descent beats up his wife, the tabloid frontpages are filled with "criminal scum beats up his wife". Crimes committed by foreigners generate clicks and buys, and this even more so given the massive right-wing swing in the western world.
- tbronchain 9y ago
  Thats quite off topic. The point is, by speaking less of insecurity people feel more safe.
rahimnathwani 9y ago
In the UK, a shop that I ran was robbed. The police said the camera outside the ship was mobile, and happened to be pointing the other way at the time. In China, I had a traffic altercation (between me, a pedestrian, and some people who were in a car at the time the altercation started). The police found the video footage and watched it within an hour after I reported it. My point: the plural of anecdote is not data.
- ttflee 9y ago
  Are you non-east-Asian? Chinese police answers to foreigners so quickly that jokes about foreigner-aided-reporting-to-police-as-a-service are circulated.
  - rahimnathwani 9y ago
    Yes, I'm non-east-Asian. And I reported the incident at a police station in an area where many foreigners live and work.

yosamino 9y ago

> Purpose matters. The point about many of these privacy related issues is that purpose can change. Almost nobody is arguing that it's not a good goal to feel safe on the streets. But there can be an argument made that cameras don't actually increase safety (though they can increase the illusion of safety) and the more important point: Increased safety is only one purpose of many of these cameras. Even if it is the only one right now, all it takes is a shift in political climate, and suddenly they can be used for many other things without, and this is the important bit, changing anything about the cameras themselves. To take up your example of being feeling safe as a Chinese in China (but don't misunderstand me, this is exactly the same in any other country!) probably works because you are not interesting to the people controlling the cameras (and the other surveillance ). But once you aren't aligned with their interests anymore and you start making trouble, these cameras give your opponents tremendous power over you. Privacy doesn't matter if you are aligned with those in power. The power imbalance it perpetuates only starts mattering as you move away from the center of society.

fpoling 9y ago

In Norway where surveillance cameras are still rare and strictly regulated, I can go anywhere and feel safe. That includes a park where drug addicts used to get and sell drugs. For few years I often passed it during the day and night. At worst somebody would ask if I wanted some substance. So I suspect violence is affected much more by culture/policy than cameras. Surely cameras may help, but for them to work one already needs a functional society. For example, cameras do not work when one can bribe police/courts to remove/ignore video evidence, like it happens in Russia.

lettergram 9y ago

I mean... Honestly, if I were Chinese - given the governments past I'd feel safer in SF than China[1][2][3]. Basically, it's similar to Iran or other states where you have to praise the government publicly & constantly - or they will find you, capture you, and probably imprison or kill you. I think one interesting thing I saw at GTC two years ago, was a Chinese firm was building software to watch / track where everyone went through a city. Including what they were doing. This is not a "safety tool" it's a surveillance tool. Sure it can be used to _maybe_ track down attackers after it happens. However, it can be used more effectively to track potential or known dissidents or track what the average person in the population is doing. [1] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/china-billionaires-ceo-disappearing-missing-station-sanctioned-abductions-beijing-security-agencies-a7564896.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/china-billio... [2] https://thediplomat.com/2016/06/china-the-us-and-extrajudicial-abductions/ https://thediplomat.com/2016/06/china-the-us-and-extrajudici... [3] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/17/china-behaving-like-gangster-state-with-bookseller-kidnap-say-hong-kong-politicians https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/17/china-behaving...

jlebrech 9y ago

as long as it cannot be used in divorce court, or by you doctor to check if you haven't been to the donut shop and such private matters. for crime it's great, but if you're a dissident they also know where you've been, or hackers can sell your schedule to unscrupulous people if it's not secure.