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yes it is, and in this case I think we're probably still figuring out the actual cause But one assumes that in this case the cause might be that the pheromones

yes it is, and in this case I think we're probably still figuring out the actual cause But one assumes that in this case the cause might be that the pheromones that people all hopped up on testosterone give off is different those given off by people who aren't .... those people would likely be cis-males, trans-males who've transitioned, trans-females who haven't transitioned, and some trans people who are currently transitioning in either direction .... we don't really have one exact word that encompasses those categories

RyanZAG 9y ago
What if it's just plain old XX vs XY chromosomes?
- simonh 9y ago
  So rats have a built in gene sequencer and detect the base pairs directly?
  - RyanZAG 9y ago
    Probably not, but why is that so far fetched? They'd just need to be dissolving it with chemicals, backed up by a neural network to identify the sequence (rat's brain, anyone?). That's kind of how smell works in general to begin with. As for why rats may develop the ability to sequence XX vs XY - if rats with the ability to do so were killed far less than those without, then rats would quickly evolve the ability to do so. This could happen if males were the ones killing rats and not females. Actually, skip the 'probably not' I began with - it's a perfectly likely explanation that may or may not be true based on further study.
    - inciampati 9y ago
      Or there could be a signaling molecule specific to sex that directly interacts with some receptive system in the animal. Maybe it's nose? DNA sequencing would be an awfully slow signal given the technology available to the organism...
  - rimliu 9y ago
    Your friend's eye color is defined by some genes. You don't need a gene sequencer to see what they are.
    - inciampati 9y ago
      To see the color you mean?
      - vetinari 9y ago
        No, the color of irides.
    - ajuc 9y ago
      (S)he can be wearing contact lens, though. And the researchers can be taking drugs changing their smell, possibly changing the mice behaviour.
    - simonh 9y ago
      Right, but wehat you detect is the eye colour, not the genes that cause it. Similarly with the rats they detect the pheromones in a male's smell, not the XY chromosomes. So suggesting they detect the XY chromosomes isn't helpful.
ardit33 9y ago
if that is true, then being a different gender is something that is 'teachable', and not at least part 'innate', i.e. biological preposition for trait and behaviors that are predetermined in early pre-birth, and/or early childhood, and not imprinted by society/media/etc... aka, by now, we'd have the "gay cure"...... if you believe that there is a predisposition of some individuals to act to have gender specific behaviour (girls acting as girls, boys as boys, or girls as boys, or boys as girls, aka trans), then you believe feeling 'trans' is not a choice, but acting on it it is, and to me the "feeling" part of it, is part of the gender. If you believe gender is a complete social construct then you can say being trans, gay, etc.. what you attracted to, and what you want to be is a choice as well.... and that can be changed, aka.. the 'gay cure' people were sent to hospitals for in the 50s and 60s. And here where it baffles me. Some of this feminist/transhuman thinking, have more in common with ultra conservative thinking then actual true progressive thinking/values and are not rooted in reality.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- Taniwha 9y ago
  Sorry what I really meant was that "I think we're probably still figuring out the actual cause of why the rats behave the way they do" In general I don't think it's as simple as being one way or the other, some people certainly seem to innately feel they were born into the wrong gender, and just want that set right, while there seem to be other people for whom it seems to be fluid, that want to be able to choose and change. I don't see it's much of any of the rest of our business other than we should make them welcome in society just like anyone else. As far as it being a 'social construct' I think the whole thing that "people with XX chromosomes must be women and people with XY must be men, or alternatively people born with penises ...." is obviously a social thing - likely tied to rigorous western sex roles and trying to force people into them - other cultures have provided places for people with differing genders - Fa'afafine, Hijra etc and traditionally treated them differently than in the west ... so yes definitely a 'social construct'
- zaarn 9y ago
  >If you believe gender is a complete social construct IIRC the nature-nurture studies show that nature is atleast 50% of the cognitive result on growing up. Atleast since the studies also binned a lot of stuff into "nurture" without much consideration as long as it's not nature. It might be more. Thinking that gender is a purely social construct is just backwards to everything we've discovered in modern science. People can be gay because of their upbringing but most of the time that is just how they are. Same with transsexuality, it's mostly how people are not how they want to grow up, which should receive utmost respect. (though on the other hand, if CRISPR advances more we might have a "gay cure" and a "trans cure". Especially the ethical debate of a "trans cure" would be interesting) > Some of this feminist/transhuman thinking, [...] are not rooted in reality Luckily not all feminists. My sister has been one of those hardcore feminists but after having a situation in which she had to decide between getting a good grade and fighting for injustice against women, she changed her attitude that she should not fight against injustice like that if she can't uphold her principles in all situations. Her reaction to this study now, relaxed, would probably have been different a year ago. I think a lot of people might react badly to the study and I'll keep an eye on it. Reactions to studies are a study of humans in of itself already, observing the acceptance of data by a specific group can tell a lot about a group. Like pheromones can tell a rat a lot about a person.

RyanZAG 9y ago

What if it's just plain old XX vs XY chromosomes?

simonh 9y ago
So rats have a built in gene sequencer and detect the base pairs directly?
- RyanZAG 9y ago
  Probably not, but why is that so far fetched? They'd just need to be dissolving it with chemicals, backed up by a neural network to identify the sequence (rat's brain, anyone?). That's kind of how smell works in general to begin with. As for why rats may develop the ability to sequence XX vs XY - if rats with the ability to do so were killed far less than those without, then rats would quickly evolve the ability to do so. This could happen if males were the ones killing rats and not females. Actually, skip the 'probably not' I began with - it's a perfectly likely explanation that may or may not be true based on further study.
  - inciampati 9y ago
    Or there could be a signaling molecule specific to sex that directly interacts with some receptive system in the animal. Maybe it's nose? DNA sequencing would be an awfully slow signal given the technology available to the organism...
- rimliu 9y ago
  Your friend's eye color is defined by some genes. You don't need a gene sequencer to see what they are.
  - inciampati 9y ago
    To see the color you mean?
    - vetinari 9y ago
      No, the color of irides.
  - ajuc 9y ago
    (S)he can be wearing contact lens, though. And the researchers can be taking drugs changing their smell, possibly changing the mice behaviour.
  - simonh 9y ago
    Right, but wehat you detect is the eye colour, not the genes that cause it. Similarly with the rats they detect the pheromones in a male's smell, not the XY chromosomes. So suggesting they detect the XY chromosomes isn't helpful.

ardit33 9y ago

if that is true, then being a different gender is something that is 'teachable', and not at least part 'innate', i.e. biological preposition for trait and behaviors that are predetermined in early pre-birth, and/or early childhood, and not imprinted by society/media/etc... aka, by now, we'd have the "gay cure"...... if you believe that there is a predisposition of some individuals to act to have gender specific behaviour (girls acting as girls, boys as boys, or girls as boys, or boys as girls, aka trans), then you believe feeling 'trans' is not a choice, but acting on it it is, and to me the "feeling" part of it, is part of the gender. If you believe gender is a complete social construct then you can say being trans, gay, etc.. what you attracted to, and what you want to be is a choice as well.... and that can be changed, aka.. the 'gay cure' people were sent to hospitals for in the 50s and 60s. And here where it baffles me. Some of this feminist/transhuman thinking, have more in common with ultra conservative thinking then actual true progressive thinking/values and are not rooted in reality.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
Taniwha 9y ago
Sorry what I really meant was that "I think we're probably still figuring out the actual cause of why the rats behave the way they do" In general I don't think it's as simple as being one way or the other, some people certainly seem to innately feel they were born into the wrong gender, and just want that set right, while there seem to be other people for whom it seems to be fluid, that want to be able to choose and change. I don't see it's much of any of the rest of our business other than we should make them welcome in society just like anyone else. As far as it being a 'social construct' I think the whole thing that "people with XX chromosomes must be women and people with XY must be men, or alternatively people born with penises ...." is obviously a social thing - likely tied to rigorous western sex roles and trying to force people into them - other cultures have provided places for people with differing genders - Fa'afafine, Hijra etc and traditionally treated them differently than in the west ... so yes definitely a 'social construct'
zaarn 9y ago
>If you believe gender is a complete social construct IIRC the nature-nurture studies show that nature is atleast 50% of the cognitive result on growing up. Atleast since the studies also binned a lot of stuff into "nurture" without much consideration as long as it's not nature. It might be more. Thinking that gender is a purely social construct is just backwards to everything we've discovered in modern science. People can be gay because of their upbringing but most of the time that is just how they are. Same with transsexuality, it's mostly how people are not how they want to grow up, which should receive utmost respect. (though on the other hand, if CRISPR advances more we might have a "gay cure" and a "trans cure". Especially the ethical debate of a "trans cure" would be interesting) > Some of this feminist/transhuman thinking, [...] are not rooted in reality Luckily not all feminists. My sister has been one of those hardcore feminists but after having a situation in which she had to decide between getting a good grade and fighting for injustice against women, she changed her attitude that she should not fight against injustice like that if she can't uphold her principles in all situations. Her reaction to this study now, relaxed, would probably have been different a year ago. I think a lot of people might react badly to the study and I'll keep an eye on it. Reactions to studies are a study of humans in of itself already, observing the acceptance of data by a specific group can tell a lot about a group. Like pheromones can tell a rat a lot about a person.