4 ms·

When SOPA was going on so-and-so years ago, there was a similar bout of over-exaggerated hysteria to get people in action. I was against it back then, but I thi

by y2bd 9y ago

When SOPA was going on so-and-so years ago, there was a similar bout of over-exaggerated hysteria to get people in action. I was against it back then, but I think the last couple of years have shown that panic and outrage is what actually gets people motivated to do anything, rather than straight, boring facts. Why not harness it for something good then?

rory096 9y ago
I'm sorry, what? The lesson of the last couple years is that we should act more like extremists drumming up outrage with misinformation?
- stuntkite 9y ago
  He's not wrong. People are lead by how they feel and not facts. There are responsible ways to make pleas to emotion on a large scale and there are manipulative things that bad actors can do with it as well. You will not win hearts and minds with pure rationality when your opponent doesn't give a shit about that. Emotional lives are just as real as cold hard facts, and as we've seen, can be so real that they manifest the expectation. I'm not an expert, nor am I an activist, but I have been reading about people studying 4chan's tactics in a post prez45 world. How a culture of open dialog to extreme gave a small group of people a weapon. Erudite "rationals" considered this sort of thing to be stupid nonsense, but it trained an entire culture to be massively effective at steering people's emotions. Their ideas can move faster without the absolute need for sensitivity or maybe because of a pathological need to offend. The current interest is in finding ways to work that radical acceptance into progressive discourse. It's important but I don't think anyone has a playbook yet.
  - rory096 9y ago
    >You will not win hearts and minds with pure rationality when your opponent doesn't give a shit about that. Where are these hardline radical pro-Comcast types? >There are responsible ways to make pleas to emotion on a large scale and there are manipulative things that bad actors can do with it as well. Frankly, the net neutrality movement has failed that test miserably in this latest campaign in particular. It's disappointing to see this from the side I support, to the point that I find myself alienated from the viewpoint altogether and have to remind myself that the policy is the only part that is important. Exhibit A: https://imgur.com/gallery/CD9H7QU https://imgur.com/gallery/CD9H7QU >I'm not an expert, nor am I an activist, but I have been reading about people studying 4chan's tactics in a post prez45 world. How a culture of open dialog to extreme gave a small group of people a weapon. Erudite "rationals" considered this sort of thing to be stupid nonsense, but it trained an entire culture to be massively effective at steering people's emotions. Their ideas can move faster without the absolute need for sensitivity or maybe because of a pathological need to offend. The current interest is in finding ways to work that radical acceptance into progressive discourse. It's important but I don't think anyone has a playbook yet. Liberals (in the academic/international sense) used to see these unfortunate behavioral quirks of humanity exploited by fascists & autocrats and vow to be better than appealing to basic instincts and herd mentality. I do not look forward to a world where radicalization and alarmism are viewed as standard tools in a campaigner's belt and reasonable people intentionally spread hyperbole or outright lies to convince the public to go their way.
    - stuntkite 9y ago
      I don't like that future either, but it's not quite what I'm saying. I definitely feel you on the fatigue. My point is that it's a mistake to just say "I'll wait till they come around" and not try to figure out how to make ethical communication based on facts that has as much pull as carpetbagging alarmists. Hardline pro Comcast types would be any Neo-Liberal, Big biz Republican, and some libertarians. We lost this battle a long time ago[1][2] is the real issue. However, they don't have absolute control over sending electrons around in a box, nor how distributed systems work in absolute. Innovation has stagnated as an entire generation of the greatest minds build an advertising scheme. The internet is fucking broken in a bizare way. As it continues to fragment, it will be a lot like our transition from AOL to an open web. People not in the know will be given palpable bullshit to keep the fat cats in slow braised bushmeat. People with a pursuit of knowledge and innovation will move to platforms that are harder to access by the masses, fragmenting the utility we have now but giving a lot of power to the people on the inside track. This is already happening in restrictive places like China as well as basically everywhere else. Hiding information and connections in aggregates of other data. Building out online dark nets as well as physical mesh networks. I see the LimeSDR playing a huge role as the web gets shittier than it is. An open source transceiver on a chip that can do everything from UHF to 5G, you can connect to an existing provider, but at any sort of density removes the need to rely on single points like cell tower networks. Also expanding to use any bandwidth or multiple with a software modification. I just bought their $3000 "Network in a Box"[3] and am building an LTE neighborhood darknet (3 Kilometers!) with my buddy. We are going to get repeaters and DIY phones to anyone in range and grow from there. The alternatives to the system don't exist yet, but innovation will not stop just because they want to sell more Thor DVDs. I'm pretty tired of it too and it feels bullshit to say "this" is over, but it is. Now we just have to take what we've learned, build something better, and learn how to bring the ignorant on our side to prevent it from happening again. I know it won't happen, but it is an absolute fact that no one actually needs facebook. Every single one of us could shut down our account at the same time and change the world in a big way. There isn't a google replacement yet (don't tell me DuckDuckGo), but maybe we can bring webrings back. [1] https://thenextweb.com/eu/2017/06/09/pirate-bay-founder-weve-lost-the-internet-its-all-about-damage-control-now/ https://thenextweb.com/eu/2017/06/09/pirate-bay-founder-weve... [2] https://webfoundation.org/2017/04/sir-tim-berners-lee-responds-to-us-net-neutrality-threat/ https://webfoundation.org/2017/04/sir-tim-berners-lee-respon... [3] https://www.crowdsupply.com/lime-micro/limenet https://www.crowdsupply.com/lime-micro/limenet
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

by y2bd 9y ago

rory096 9y ago

I'm sorry, what? The lesson of the last couple years is that we should act more like extremists drumming up outrage with misinformation?

stuntkite 9y ago
He's not wrong. People are lead by how they feel and not facts. There are responsible ways to make pleas to emotion on a large scale and there are manipulative things that bad actors can do with it as well. You will not win hearts and minds with pure rationality when your opponent doesn't give a shit about that. Emotional lives are just as real as cold hard facts, and as we've seen, can be so real that they manifest the expectation. I'm not an expert, nor am I an activist, but I have been reading about people studying 4chan's tactics in a post prez45 world. How a culture of open dialog to extreme gave a small group of people a weapon. Erudite "rationals" considered this sort of thing to be stupid nonsense, but it trained an entire culture to be massively effective at steering people's emotions. Their ideas can move faster without the absolute need for sensitivity or maybe because of a pathological need to offend. The current interest is in finding ways to work that radical acceptance into progressive discourse. It's important but I don't think anyone has a playbook yet.
- rory096 9y ago
  >You will not win hearts and minds with pure rationality when your opponent doesn't give a shit about that. Where are these hardline radical pro-Comcast types? >There are responsible ways to make pleas to emotion on a large scale and there are manipulative things that bad actors can do with it as well. Frankly, the net neutrality movement has failed that test miserably in this latest campaign in particular. It's disappointing to see this from the side I support, to the point that I find myself alienated from the viewpoint altogether and have to remind myself that the policy is the only part that is important. Exhibit A: https://imgur.com/gallery/CD9H7QU https://imgur.com/gallery/CD9H7QU >I'm not an expert, nor am I an activist, but I have been reading about people studying 4chan's tactics in a post prez45 world. How a culture of open dialog to extreme gave a small group of people a weapon. Erudite "rationals" considered this sort of thing to be stupid nonsense, but it trained an entire culture to be massively effective at steering people's emotions. Their ideas can move faster without the absolute need for sensitivity or maybe because of a pathological need to offend. The current interest is in finding ways to work that radical acceptance into progressive discourse. It's important but I don't think anyone has a playbook yet. Liberals (in the academic/international sense) used to see these unfortunate behavioral quirks of humanity exploited by fascists & autocrats and vow to be better than appealing to basic instincts and herd mentality. I do not look forward to a world where radicalization and alarmism are viewed as standard tools in a campaigner's belt and reasonable people intentionally spread hyperbole or outright lies to convince the public to go their way.
  - stuntkite 9y ago
    I don't like that future either, but it's not quite what I'm saying. I definitely feel you on the fatigue. My point is that it's a mistake to just say "I'll wait till they come around" and not try to figure out how to make ethical communication based on facts that has as much pull as carpetbagging alarmists. Hardline pro Comcast types would be any Neo-Liberal, Big biz Republican, and some libertarians. We lost this battle a long time ago[1][2] is the real issue. However, they don't have absolute control over sending electrons around in a box, nor how distributed systems work in absolute. Innovation has stagnated as an entire generation of the greatest minds build an advertising scheme. The internet is fucking broken in a bizare way. As it continues to fragment, it will be a lot like our transition from AOL to an open web. People not in the know will be given palpable bullshit to keep the fat cats in slow braised bushmeat. People with a pursuit of knowledge and innovation will move to platforms that are harder to access by the masses, fragmenting the utility we have now but giving a lot of power to the people on the inside track. This is already happening in restrictive places like China as well as basically everywhere else. Hiding information and connections in aggregates of other data. Building out online dark nets as well as physical mesh networks. I see the LimeSDR playing a huge role as the web gets shittier than it is. An open source transceiver on a chip that can do everything from UHF to 5G, you can connect to an existing provider, but at any sort of density removes the need to rely on single points like cell tower networks. Also expanding to use any bandwidth or multiple with a software modification. I just bought their $3000 "Network in a Box"[3] and am building an LTE neighborhood darknet (3 Kilometers!) with my buddy. We are going to get repeaters and DIY phones to anyone in range and grow from there. The alternatives to the system don't exist yet, but innovation will not stop just because they want to sell more Thor DVDs. I'm pretty tired of it too and it feels bullshit to say "this" is over, but it is. Now we just have to take what we've learned, build something better, and learn how to bring the ignorant on our side to prevent it from happening again. I know it won't happen, but it is an absolute fact that no one actually needs facebook. Every single one of us could shut down our account at the same time and change the world in a big way. There isn't a google replacement yet (don't tell me DuckDuckGo), but maybe we can bring webrings back. [1] https://thenextweb.com/eu/2017/06/09/pirate-bay-founder-weve-lost-the-internet-its-all-about-damage-control-now/ https://thenextweb.com/eu/2017/06/09/pirate-bay-founder-weve... [2] https://webfoundation.org/2017/04/sir-tim-berners-lee-responds-to-us-net-neutrality-threat/ https://webfoundation.org/2017/04/sir-tim-berners-lee-respon... [3] https://www.crowdsupply.com/lime-micro/limenet https://www.crowdsupply.com/lime-micro/limenet

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]