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"A little butt slap here or innuendo laced comment there was tolerated and sometimes even expected, but those days suddenly ended when even the powerful and inf
by alexasmyths 9y ago
"A little butt slap here or innuendo laced comment there was tolerated and sometimes even expected, but those days suddenly ended when even the powerful and influential Harvey Weinstein could fall."
That's the thing - 'what is it'?
A 'slap on the butt' is point blank harassment and never really accepted in any culture. You could 'get away with it' but it was not ever considered perfectly ok.
'Sexual innuendo' - that is normal in many places in the world,
'Commenting on a woman's appearance' is a positive trait in many places in the world.
'Showing up at your door in a bathrobe' - is not unethical behaviour. There has to be a lot added onto that to make it inappropriate.
And there are huge levels of inappropriate.
What if you are out drinking with a co-worker, then back at your place drinking, you're both flirting - and then you go in for the kiss?
A sales lady jumped in the pool naked at a hotel where we were staying. Nobody cared, we were drinking, it was funny. But if it's a dude - it's wrong?
Putting drugs in a girls drink and then raping her ... well that's beyond immoral and very illegal.
The problem I think - is that a lot of this stuff is getting lumped together.
A lot of this behaviour is really only 'no acceptable' wherein there are very high bars for behaviour.
You don't put your hand on a woman's knee at the office.
You can put your hand on a woman's knee if you're out on a date with her.
What if you are co-workers? What if one works for the other.
...
This is all complex and nuanced stuff, I don't think we can just lump it all together.
FYI - it was 'progressives' in the 1960's pushing for sexual liberation - and 'consent' is in the vast majority of even positive cases, not exactly given verbally.
So there is a 'new set of norms' but a lot of it is based in fear.
Have you seen the 3 second video of Gigi Hadid who received a 'buddha doll' (possibly not buddha, just a fat man), it's really cute. She makes a face, puts the doll next to her, and smiles like the doll. It's just fun, I don't think racist at all - and yet the Chinese government got involved.
The smallest mis-step - one person - in one place - can say something - and it blows up.
The 'new order' will not be a 'moral order' - it will be a 'sanitized order' - wherein every word - every action - every thought - will be scrutinized so intensely that I'm weary we're giving up a lot for this.
So yes - the 'new norm' of 'don't harass your interns and grab their asses' is really good - but I fear it won't just create a 'safe place' for people, it may ultimately create a hostile place where we can't just be human.
I stayed at a friends house in SF recently, she came out of the kitchen naked, and went into her bedroom - just as I was falling asleep on the couch. She was giggling. She was not flirting with me - just kidding. And I laughed because it was funny. We work in the same industry. Should I charge her with sexual assault?
Anyhow - it's complicated. A few steps forward a few steps back.
- borkt 9y agoA friend is an extremely high achiever and has been promoted rapidly in a ~1000 person company based on their work and reputation alone. Recently, as they have had to begin participating in more and more high level functions with directors/executives, unwanted touching has occurred more than once. Despite every effort to physically move away from the situation and send clear signals it continues. You can bet they are in a position where not only are they uncomfortable saying anything, they are also is absolutely looking to jump ship to a company where this does not occur. I can guarantee you that allowing these people to continue these actions without punishment will certainly hurt the long term success of these organizations. Anyone with half a brain knows these actions are unacceptable, the problem is those with more than half a brain realized they were able to get away with it previously and chose to continue acting in a way that provides them a sense of power and satisfaction as up to this point they simply could. This is no longer the case and a lot of people who aren't all bad and simply thought they could get away with it will (and should) lose everything for this.
- alexasmyths 9y agoI didn't imply that people doing inappropriate things should be able to get away with it. Just saying it can be complicated in some cases, though obviously not in others.
- s73ver_ 9y agoActually, it's very rarely complicated. 90% of those cases could be eliminated by simply asking the person before you go in to touch them.
- CydeWeys 9y agoEven less complicated -- Simply never touch people like this in work settings, period. Don't even ask, just don't do it. The line between acceptable behavior and unacceptable behavior at work is obvious.
- Koshkin 9y ago