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Wow, I wasn't aware. I did some searching and his own writing is even more damning (the chapter "You Just Ask Them?" in "Surely You’re Joking, Mr. Feynman!") >

Wow, I wasn't aware. I did some searching and his own writing is even more damning (the chapter "You Just Ask Them?" in "Surely You’re Joking, Mr. Feynman!") > Well, someone only has to give me the principle, and I get the idea. All during the next day I built up my psychology differently: I adopted the attitude that those bar girls are all bitches, that they aren’t worth anything, and all they’re in there for is to get you to buy them a drink, and they’re not going to give you a goddamn thing; I’m not going to be a gentleman to such worthless bitches, and so on. I learned it till it was automatic. Further excerpts and discussion here: https://restructure.wordpress.com/2009/08/07/sexist-feynman-called-a-woman-worse-than-a-whore/ https://restructure.wordpress.com/2009/08/07/sexist-feynman-...

whatshisface 9y ago
The fact that he said "during the next day" makes it sound like the rest of the story might change the situation. Can someone who has read the book please weigh in?
- deleted 9y ago
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- jacobolus 9y ago
  The context of the story is that he keeps buying drinks for women who flirt with him at nightclubs (e.g. one or another traveling singer) who then near the end of the night make some excuse why they can’t spend more time with him and leave. He notices one of the women who made some excuse about a party that night has been talking with the MC frequently, and surmises correctly that they are married – turns out the woman wasn’t actually looking for romance and was just leading Feynman on to get free drinks out of him. The permanent singer at the club had been introducing women to him after first telling the women he was a big spender. Feynman befriends the couple (singer and MC), and they talk about how plenty of rich men at the bar keep spending money on the girls there without getting anywhere romantically. The MC tries to teach Feynman about the social roles people take on at a bar. The key lesson is that a man who buys a woman a drink up front is unlikely to end up getting the one night stand he wants, but if he refuses to buy her anything, his chances will be better. Feynman tried it out by getting a girl to pay him back for a sandwich, and a few hours later she came by at the end of the night and invited him to her room, so the lesson apparently worked. The “bitches” part is some kind of temporary psychological reprogramming he’s doing on himself for a day or two so that he can bring himself to objectify people against his usual inclination, so that he can try the experiment. It’s clear in context that he doesn’t think all women are “bitches”. Feynman tried it one more time some while later on someone who wasn’t a traveling singer, flirting a bit with a girl but then asking if she would sleep with him before he would buy her a drink. She agreed. His conclusion at the end is: “So it worked even with an ordinary girl! But no matter how effective the lesson was, I never really used it after that. I didn’t enjoy doing it that way. But it was interesting to know that things worked much differently from how I was brought up.” Note: I’m not making any value judgments here, just recounting the story.
  - aaron-lebo 9y ago
    The summary is unnecessary, the entire story is in that post and includes stuff like: I stop suddenly and I say to her, “You… are worse than a WHORE!” It's probably better if people just read it.
    - jacobolus 9y ago
      Again, he spent one day amping himself up so that he could spend one evening play-acting as a misogynist jackass, including throwing this single (offensive but also somewhat jokey sounding) line at a woman after she suggested that he buy her a sandwich so they could eat together at her place, but then took the sandwiches he bought and was about to leave without him. She can’t have been that offended by the line, considering she came back a few hours later and invited him to her room. The point of the story is that misogynist jackasses can be successful at finding one-night stands a bar but he didn’t enjoy it, so he only ever tried it twice. Maybe you think that is damning evidence of some inherently irredeemable character flaw, but let he/she who hasn’t ever once spent an evening being an asshole (intentionally for an amateur sociology experiment or otherwise) cast the first stone.
      - aaron-lebo 9y ago
        Feynman initially assumed that if a man bought drinks for a woman, she owed him sex. After these experiences, he assumed that if a man “disrespected” a woman by not buying her anything, she provided him with sex because she was stupid or masochistic. Sadly, in both these cases, he never considered the possibility that a woman’s sexual consent and worth should not be monetized in the first place.
        jacobolus 9y ago
        (a) Feynman never claims anyone owed him sex. All he said was that the men buying women drinks out of an unrealistic hope of getting a one-night stand out the other end were fools. (b) Feynman never said that not buying her something was “disrespectful” (though the MC did say that the man should (1) be disrespectful and also (2) not buy a woman anything up front). The “disrespectful” part was insulting someone or directly propositioning a stranger for sex in return for a drink. You are reading a whole lot more into the story about Feynman’s “assumptions” and “considerations” than is supportable by the text. Overall I would say your comment is considerably more condescending and offensive than the story. If you want to give Feynman crap about his other treatment of women throughout his life, so be it, but this story is pretty thin evidence for whatever case you’re trying to make.
cycrutchfield 9y ago
Feynman is a redpiller
- daxorid 9y ago
  Many, likely most, people of prior generations held views that would shock today's worshippers of the Blank Slate Religion.
- defen 9y ago
  I remember when The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pickup Artists came out and was a fairly big deal, as far as those things go. All I could think was, didn't Feynman write about this 20 years ago?
yolobey 9y ago
He was a product of his time. That section (unsurprisingly) is preceded by him acting gentlemanly, as he always had, and failing to attract anyone. Gender roles work both ways, and that was apparently how society there and then in that social context expected men to act.
- danharaj 9y ago
  His time was a product of people, like him, the ones that lived at that time. The causality is reversed.
  - munificent 9y ago
    Surely you understand that the both statements are true and that culture and people are an iterative process where both affect each other?
- zimpenfish 9y ago
  > He was a product of his time. This is never an excuse because millions of other men were products of the same time and didn't behave like this, FFHS.
- watwut 9y ago
  He was not really gentlemanly before, he was slimy. He attempted to play innuendo and manipulation game, but he was bad at it. He was not nice guy as in "polite helpful man nice to people around indiscriminately". He was a guy that buys drinks to random women he just met hoping they will have sex with him afterwards. The actual 1950 gentlemen was supposed to buy stuff to show how good potential provider he is, then girl supposedly falls in love, then they marry and he provides while she cares about house, children and him. There was no such intention in these interactions. Then he moved on to directly state his intentions, which actually worked, because those women were actually open to having one night stands. But that move was not possible for him unless he convinced himself that women in question is worth less then nothing. But, if his nice guy play would work and they would really fall in love with his nice guysness and then had sex with him, they would be really hugely disappointed next morning cause he was in it for sex only. So I guess it is very good thing all players except him were experienced enough to recognize the situation and seen through his nice guy act.
Santosh83 9y ago
Might be a good time to link something wonderful about him (other than his physics; posted this previously on HN but it gained no traction)... https://www.brainpickings.org/2017/10/17/richard-feynman-arline-letter/ https://www.brainpickings.org/2017/10/17/richard-feynman-arl...

whatshisface 9y ago

The fact that he said "during the next day" makes it sound like the rest of the story might change the situation. Can someone who has read the book please weigh in?

deleted 9y ago
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deleted 9y ago
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jacobolus 9y ago
The context of the story is that he keeps buying drinks for women who flirt with him at nightclubs (e.g. one or another traveling singer) who then near the end of the night make some excuse why they can’t spend more time with him and leave. He notices one of the women who made some excuse about a party that night has been talking with the MC frequently, and surmises correctly that they are married – turns out the woman wasn’t actually looking for romance and was just leading Feynman on to get free drinks out of him. The permanent singer at the club had been introducing women to him after first telling the women he was a big spender. Feynman befriends the couple (singer and MC), and they talk about how plenty of rich men at the bar keep spending money on the girls there without getting anywhere romantically. The MC tries to teach Feynman about the social roles people take on at a bar. The key lesson is that a man who buys a woman a drink up front is unlikely to end up getting the one night stand he wants, but if he refuses to buy her anything, his chances will be better. Feynman tried it out by getting a girl to pay him back for a sandwich, and a few hours later she came by at the end of the night and invited him to her room, so the lesson apparently worked. The “bitches” part is some kind of temporary psychological reprogramming he’s doing on himself for a day or two so that he can bring himself to objectify people against his usual inclination, so that he can try the experiment. It’s clear in context that he doesn’t think all women are “bitches”. Feynman tried it one more time some while later on someone who wasn’t a traveling singer, flirting a bit with a girl but then asking if she would sleep with him before he would buy her a drink. She agreed. His conclusion at the end is: “So it worked even with an ordinary girl! But no matter how effective the lesson was, I never really used it after that. I didn’t enjoy doing it that way. But it was interesting to know that things worked much differently from how I was brought up.” Note: I’m not making any value judgments here, just recounting the story.
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  The summary is unnecessary, the entire story is in that post and includes stuff like: I stop suddenly and I say to her, “You… are worse than a WHORE!” It's probably better if people just read it.
  - jacobolus 9y ago
    Again, he spent one day amping himself up so that he could spend one evening play-acting as a misogynist jackass, including throwing this single (offensive but also somewhat jokey sounding) line at a woman after she suggested that he buy her a sandwich so they could eat together at her place, but then took the sandwiches he bought and was about to leave without him. She can’t have been that offended by the line, considering she came back a few hours later and invited him to her room. The point of the story is that misogynist jackasses can be successful at finding one-night stands a bar but he didn’t enjoy it, so he only ever tried it twice. Maybe you think that is damning evidence of some inherently irredeemable character flaw, but let he/she who hasn’t ever once spent an evening being an asshole (intentionally for an amateur sociology experiment or otherwise) cast the first stone.
    - aaron-lebo 9y ago
      Feynman initially assumed that if a man bought drinks for a woman, she owed him sex. After these experiences, he assumed that if a man “disrespected” a woman by not buying her anything, she provided him with sex because she was stupid or masochistic. Sadly, in both these cases, he never considered the possibility that a woman’s sexual consent and worth should not be monetized in the first place.
      - jacobolus 9y ago
        (a) Feynman never claims anyone owed him sex. All he said was that the men buying women drinks out of an unrealistic hope of getting a one-night stand out the other end were fools. (b) Feynman never said that not buying her something was “disrespectful” (though the MC did say that the man should (1) be disrespectful and also (2) not buy a woman anything up front). The “disrespectful” part was insulting someone or directly propositioning a stranger for sex in return for a drink. You are reading a whole lot more into the story about Feynman’s “assumptions” and “considerations” than is supportable by the text. Overall I would say your comment is considerably more condescending and offensive than the story. If you want to give Feynman crap about his other treatment of women throughout his life, so be it, but this story is pretty thin evidence for whatever case you’re trying to make.

cycrutchfield 9y ago

Feynman is a redpiller

daxorid 9y ago
Many, likely most, people of prior generations held views that would shock today's worshippers of the Blank Slate Religion.
defen 9y ago
I remember when The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pickup Artists came out and was a fairly big deal, as far as those things go. All I could think was, didn't Feynman write about this 20 years ago?

yolobey 9y ago

He was a product of his time. That section (unsurprisingly) is preceded by him acting gentlemanly, as he always had, and failing to attract anyone. Gender roles work both ways, and that was apparently how society there and then in that social context expected men to act.

danharaj 9y ago
His time was a product of people, like him, the ones that lived at that time. The causality is reversed.
- munificent 9y ago
  Surely you understand that the both statements are true and that culture and people are an iterative process where both affect each other?
zimpenfish 9y ago
> He was a product of his time. This is never an excuse because millions of other men were products of the same time and didn't behave like this, FFHS.
watwut 9y ago
He was not really gentlemanly before, he was slimy. He attempted to play innuendo and manipulation game, but he was bad at it. He was not nice guy as in "polite helpful man nice to people around indiscriminately". He was a guy that buys drinks to random women he just met hoping they will have sex with him afterwards. The actual 1950 gentlemen was supposed to buy stuff to show how good potential provider he is, then girl supposedly falls in love, then they marry and he provides while she cares about house, children and him. There was no such intention in these interactions. Then he moved on to directly state his intentions, which actually worked, because those women were actually open to having one night stands. But that move was not possible for him unless he convinced himself that women in question is worth less then nothing. But, if his nice guy play would work and they would really fall in love with his nice guysness and then had sex with him, they would be really hugely disappointed next morning cause he was in it for sex only. So I guess it is very good thing all players except him were experienced enough to recognize the situation and seen through his nice guy act.

Santosh83 9y ago

Might be a good time to link something wonderful about him (other than his physics; posted this previously on HN but it gained no traction)... https://www.brainpickings.org/2017/10/17/richard-feynman-arline-letter/ https://www.brainpickings.org/2017/10/17/richard-feynman-arl...