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You'll find that thinking like that will only lead to misery at worst and hypocrisy at best. For example, if you live in the United States (though this logic ap

by tabeth 9y ago

You'll find that thinking like that will only lead to misery at worst and hypocrisy at best. For example, if you live in the United States (though this logic applies to any country, really), you'll be interested to know that the US holds the world record for the amount innocent civilians killed [1]. [1] https://www.globalresearch.ca/u-s-holds-the-world-record-of-killings-innocent-civilians/5393789 https://www.globalresearch.ca/u-s-holds-the-world-record-of-... EDIT: I realize I sound far more judge-y than intended in these posts. My overall point is that people should just do whatever makes 'em happy while doing the best you can (w.r.t. everything else). Trying to emphasize the morality in your actions is just wrong, imo.

nothrabannosir 9y ago
Don’t let hypocrisy stop you from doing the right thing. Sometimes you need to climb one tree to cut down another.[1] That’s ok. [1] tbh I don’t think you do, but I like the analogy so I’m keeping it.
- tabeth 9y ago
  I disagree. One needs to be consistent in their actions, otherwise, what's the point? Two wrongs don't make a right, after all. EDIT: Er, I agree that hypocrisy shouldn't stop you from doing the right thing.
  - nothrabannosir 9y ago
    Consistency is absolutely impossible, as you already alluded to. It’s not a bad move to assess the current position, accept it for what it is, and improve it bit by bit. Pick your battles. Two wrongs don’t make a right when you try to sum them, I.e. combine them. My point is: don’t compare them at all. Don’t change the subject. Uber is one, other things are another. Being a hypocrite doesn’t make you wrong, it just makes you a hypocrite. Don’t even pull in the other wrong to begin with. Otherwise, how do you ever justify standing up for anything you believe in? I was born a hypocrite, surely a life of mute acquiescence can’t be my destiny?
    - tabeth 9y ago
      My overall point is that people don't actually care. It's just virtue signaling. If people cared they'd have consistency in their actions. For example, you probably are very consistent in the fact that you probably will never cause physical harm to someone. Consistency isn't impossible at all. People are already very consistent in doing what simply is convenient for them. In the case of Uber vs. Lyft, if you live in an area where they're priced similarly and are of similar service it's easy to switch to one or the other under the guise of trying to do the right thing, or whatever. Not using Uber hardly requires any effort. What, ten seconds to uninstall an app and install the alternative one?
      - euyyn 9y ago
        Today's SMBC comic is relevant to your argument: http://smbc-comics.com/comic/wait-a-sec http://smbc-comics.com/comic/wait-a-sec
      - kelnos 9y ago
        > My overall point is that people don't actually care. It's just virtue signaling. That's just, like, your opinion, man. I care up to certain thresholds. Last year my Uber use was probably 90%, Lyft 10%. Now that's flipped. I only use Uber if I'm outside the US and there's no comparable local alternative. Uber is demonstrably making less money than it used to because I do this, and Lyft is making more. I'm personally happy with that arrangement, and honestly my feelings here are the only ones that matter. I don't particularly care if you think I'm just "virtue signaling" or if I'm "not doing enough" or whatever.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        tabeth 9y ago
        Hey, just wanted to let you know (not that you care), that you're 100% right. My original post, and subsequent responses were based on a false equivalency. Dunno what I was thinking, I was totally in the wrong. Apologies if any offense was taken.
  - Xylakant 9y ago
    It’s just not possible to be perfectly consistent in all your actions, we’re all hypocrites somewhere if you consider all down to the root. We probably all hate forced child labor, yet we all own smartphones, all of them most likely built with resources mined by children under grueling conditions. (This text Is typed on one) Still, don’t let that stop from doing the right thing once in a while. If we all did the right thing most of the time, we’d still be hypocrites, but the world would probably be a better place.
    - tabeth 9y ago
      > We probably all hate forced child labor A false premise. If that were true, just like you stated, we wouldn't support it. Actions speak louder than words, and all that. EDIT: I realize I sound far more judge-y than intended in these posts. My overall point is that people should just do whatever makes 'em happy while doing the best you can (w.r.t. everything else). Trying to emphasize the morality in your actions is just wrong, imo.
      - Xylakant 9y ago
        It’s not a false premise. It’s just not humanly possible to change everything you don’t support. We can’t move all back to self-dug caves and till the land with our bare hands. You need to pick your battles.
        tabeth 9y ago
        It's not about changing things you support, it's just about consistency in your actions. Taking the child labor thing into account, never being brand new electronics again would pretty much take care of that. One could make an argument that buying used goods is still supporting child labor, but I'd argue it's a sunk cost.
        ForHackernews 9y ago
        > brand new electronics Why choose this example? Child labour is rife in many sectors, particularly textiles. It's also rampant in electronics recycling[0]. So even if you never buy any new electronics, you're complicit when you dispose of your old electronics. The point is you shouldn't allow an impossible quest for perfect ideological consistency and moral purity to prevent you from doing good on a imperfect, inconsistent scale. [0] http://pulitzercenter.org/reporting/india-rising-tide-e-waste http://pulitzercenter.org/reporting/india-rising-tide-e-wast...
  - kelnos 9y ago
    > Two wrongs don't make a right, after all. That saying... doesn't even apply here. Being consistent in all you do is hard. Doing 5 "bad" things instead of 10 "bad" things is certainly better.
    - tabeth 9y ago
      the two wrongs in this case are the supposed wrong you did originally, and then the "wrong" of hypocrisy. I agree with your overall point, though.
- arnarbi 9y ago
  > tbh I don’t think you do I've actually had to climb one tree to cut down another.
lern_too_spel 9y ago
We can vote for people who don't want the US to kill civilians while not using Uber. I don't see the conflict here.
- tabeth 9y ago
  The point is that if you know that the US kills civilians yet you stay in the US, giving them money through tax, the majority of which is used to fund the very same military that kills civilians, yet claim to do the right thing, that's hypocritical, no? In any case, you're right. There is no conflict. Just hypocrisy. EDIT: I realize I sound far more judge-y than intended in these posts. My overall point is that people should just do whatever makes 'em happy while doing the best you can (w.r.t. everything else). Trying to emphasize the morality in your actions is just wrong, imo.
  - SolaceQuantum 9y ago
    So one should absolve themselves of any way they could stop it in a peaceful and legal manner?
    - tabeth 9y ago
      No no. My point probably just wasn't properly conveyed. In the original post I replied to the person the person encouraged their friends to use Lyft after hearing about the terrible things over at Uber. Presumably they want friends to switch over as to not support an organization they disagree with, but my point was that doing so is pretty much impossible to begin with. If the goal is to not support organizations that do things you disagree with it's futile. Therefore, one should just decide arbitrarily. It really doesn't matter.
      - lern_too_spel 9y ago
        Taking money away from a bad company helps stop that company from doing bad. Similarly, voting for a politician who will try not to kill civilians helps prevent civilians from being killed. Both of these are correct actions to take. Moving out of the country is comparatively less effective, and continuing to give money to the bad company is not effective at all.
tuxracer 9y ago
If you're not willing to restructure your entire life to the point of renouncing citizenship of the country you were born into then you shouldn't ever make any choices based on moral principles whatsoever? uh.. what?? https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white

by tabeth 9y ago

nothrabannosir 9y ago

Don’t let hypocrisy stop you from doing the right thing. Sometimes you need to climb one tree to cut down another.[1] That’s ok. [1] tbh I don’t think you do, but I like the analogy so I’m keeping it.

tabeth 9y ago
I disagree. One needs to be consistent in their actions, otherwise, what's the point? Two wrongs don't make a right, after all. EDIT: Er, I agree that hypocrisy shouldn't stop you from doing the right thing.
- nothrabannosir 9y ago
  Consistency is absolutely impossible, as you already alluded to. It’s not a bad move to assess the current position, accept it for what it is, and improve it bit by bit. Pick your battles. Two wrongs don’t make a right when you try to sum them, I.e. combine them. My point is: don’t compare them at all. Don’t change the subject. Uber is one, other things are another. Being a hypocrite doesn’t make you wrong, it just makes you a hypocrite. Don’t even pull in the other wrong to begin with. Otherwise, how do you ever justify standing up for anything you believe in? I was born a hypocrite, surely a life of mute acquiescence can’t be my destiny?
  - tabeth 9y ago
    My overall point is that people don't actually care. It's just virtue signaling. If people cared they'd have consistency in their actions. For example, you probably are very consistent in the fact that you probably will never cause physical harm to someone. Consistency isn't impossible at all. People are already very consistent in doing what simply is convenient for them. In the case of Uber vs. Lyft, if you live in an area where they're priced similarly and are of similar service it's easy to switch to one or the other under the guise of trying to do the right thing, or whatever. Not using Uber hardly requires any effort. What, ten seconds to uninstall an app and install the alternative one?
    - euyyn 9y ago
      Today's SMBC comic is relevant to your argument: http://smbc-comics.com/comic/wait-a-sec http://smbc-comics.com/comic/wait-a-sec
    - kelnos 9y ago
      > My overall point is that people don't actually care. It's just virtue signaling. That's just, like, your opinion, man. I care up to certain thresholds. Last year my Uber use was probably 90%, Lyft 10%. Now that's flipped. I only use Uber if I'm outside the US and there's no comparable local alternative. Uber is demonstrably making less money than it used to because I do this, and Lyft is making more. I'm personally happy with that arrangement, and honestly my feelings here are the only ones that matter. I don't particularly care if you think I'm just "virtue signaling" or if I'm "not doing enough" or whatever.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - tabeth 9y ago
        Hey, just wanted to let you know (not that you care), that you're 100% right. My original post, and subsequent responses were based on a false equivalency. Dunno what I was thinking, I was totally in the wrong. Apologies if any offense was taken.
- Xylakant 9y ago
  It’s just not possible to be perfectly consistent in all your actions, we’re all hypocrites somewhere if you consider all down to the root. We probably all hate forced child labor, yet we all own smartphones, all of them most likely built with resources mined by children under grueling conditions. (This text Is typed on one) Still, don’t let that stop from doing the right thing once in a while. If we all did the right thing most of the time, we’d still be hypocrites, but the world would probably be a better place.
  - tabeth 9y ago
    > We probably all hate forced child labor A false premise. If that were true, just like you stated, we wouldn't support it. Actions speak louder than words, and all that. EDIT: I realize I sound far more judge-y than intended in these posts. My overall point is that people should just do whatever makes 'em happy while doing the best you can (w.r.t. everything else). Trying to emphasize the morality in your actions is just wrong, imo.
    - Xylakant 9y ago
      It’s not a false premise. It’s just not humanly possible to change everything you don’t support. We can’t move all back to self-dug caves and till the land with our bare hands. You need to pick your battles.
      - tabeth 9y ago
        It's not about changing things you support, it's just about consistency in your actions. Taking the child labor thing into account, never being brand new electronics again would pretty much take care of that. One could make an argument that buying used goods is still supporting child labor, but I'd argue it's a sunk cost.
        ForHackernews 9y ago
        > brand new electronics Why choose this example? Child labour is rife in many sectors, particularly textiles. It's also rampant in electronics recycling[0]. So even if you never buy any new electronics, you're complicit when you dispose of your old electronics. The point is you shouldn't allow an impossible quest for perfect ideological consistency and moral purity to prevent you from doing good on a imperfect, inconsistent scale. [0] http://pulitzercenter.org/reporting/india-rising-tide-e-waste http://pulitzercenter.org/reporting/india-rising-tide-e-wast...
- kelnos 9y ago
  > Two wrongs don't make a right, after all. That saying... doesn't even apply here. Being consistent in all you do is hard. Doing 5 "bad" things instead of 10 "bad" things is certainly better.
  - tabeth 9y ago
    the two wrongs in this case are the supposed wrong you did originally, and then the "wrong" of hypocrisy. I agree with your overall point, though.
arnarbi 9y ago
> tbh I don’t think you do I've actually had to climb one tree to cut down another.

lern_too_spel 9y ago

We can vote for people who don't want the US to kill civilians while not using Uber. I don't see the conflict here.

tabeth 9y ago
The point is that if you know that the US kills civilians yet you stay in the US, giving them money through tax, the majority of which is used to fund the very same military that kills civilians, yet claim to do the right thing, that's hypocritical, no? In any case, you're right. There is no conflict. Just hypocrisy. EDIT: I realize I sound far more judge-y than intended in these posts. My overall point is that people should just do whatever makes 'em happy while doing the best you can (w.r.t. everything else). Trying to emphasize the morality in your actions is just wrong, imo.
- SolaceQuantum 9y ago
  So one should absolve themselves of any way they could stop it in a peaceful and legal manner?
  - tabeth 9y ago
    No no. My point probably just wasn't properly conveyed. In the original post I replied to the person the person encouraged their friends to use Lyft after hearing about the terrible things over at Uber. Presumably they want friends to switch over as to not support an organization they disagree with, but my point was that doing so is pretty much impossible to begin with. If the goal is to not support organizations that do things you disagree with it's futile. Therefore, one should just decide arbitrarily. It really doesn't matter.
    - lern_too_spel 9y ago
      Taking money away from a bad company helps stop that company from doing bad. Similarly, voting for a politician who will try not to kill civilians helps prevent civilians from being killed. Both of these are correct actions to take. Moving out of the country is comparatively less effective, and continuing to give money to the bad company is not effective at all.

tuxracer 9y ago

If you're not willing to restructure your entire life to the point of renouncing citizenship of the country you were born into then you shouldn't ever make any choices based on moral principles whatsoever? uh.. what?? https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white