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>the solution is to buy a (much more expensive) phone from this specific competitor This sounds like advertising. Also, I'm fairly sure that Apple also sells d

>the solution is to buy a (much more expensive) phone from this specific competitor This sounds like advertising. Also, I'm fairly sure that Apple also sells data. Indeed, given current privacy laws, it's basically guaranteed that if a company has proprietary software, it is selling data from that software.

labster 9y ago
This sounds an awful lot like FUD. Care to back up any of those generalizations with evidence?
- dawnbreez 9y ago
  The trouble is that the evidence is basically "Apple says they don't". Because the source code is not open, we can't know for sure one way or the other.
  - kgarten 9y ago
    No the source code won't help you. If you want to hide sth. you can hide it ;) http://wiki.c2.com/?TheKenThompsonHack http://wiki.c2.com/?TheKenThompsonHack
    - labster 9y ago
      Oh come on. For that to work Apple would have to become a major backer of a compiler, and even then provide major libraries that link to everything. And possibly even invent its own variant of C. What are the chances of that? Oh. Well. I'll just be hiding in this corner, then.
- Johnny555 9y ago
  It's right there in their privacy policy, they already say that they can share your location and other "non-personal information" for any purpose. And it's a very small step from "occupation, language, zip code, area code, unique device identifier, referrer URL, location" for a vendor to identify you. If they weren't selling location information, then they could just say it: https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/en-ww/ https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/en-ww/ Collection and Use of Non-Personal Information We also collect data in a form that does not, on its own, permit direct association with any specific individual. We may collect, use, transfer, and disclose non-personal information for any purpose. The following are some examples of non-personal information that we collect and how we may use it: We may collect information such as occupation, language, zip code, area code, unique device identifier, referrer URL, location, and the time zone where an Apple product is used so that we can better understand customer behavior and improve our products, services, and advertising.
lotso 9y ago
> Also, I'm fairly sure that Apple also sells data. Can you point to a source that shows this? This sounds like a lie to me.
- dawnbreez 9y ago
  As mentioned in the reply to the sibling comment, we can't know for sure unless we have source code.
  - Larrikin 9y ago
    So instead we should wildly speculate with no evidence? I personally prefer my android phone and the only true advantage for iOS I see is that Apple actively fights for privacy.
  - tryingagainbro 9y ago
    >>we can't know for sure unless we have source code. Maybe they're even promoting drug use to kids under 5...I mean it's possible.
  - enraged_camel 9y ago
    How would having the iOS source code show you that Apple is selling data?
    - literallycancer 9y ago
      If Apple claims to care about protecting privacy, the onus is on them to prove that they actually do, e.g. by publishing the source code to show everyone that it doesn't collect anything. Otherwise, the assumption is that they do.
      - spurcell93 9y ago
        While I appreciate the sentiment that we should be distrustful of every large company that has our data, including apple, I take issue with the assertion that unless that publish their source code, they are selling our data. Logically, apple has no reason to be selling our data in even close to the same way that google does. These arguments have been thoroughly outlined in the threads above. Furthermore, showing us the source code would not prove whether or not apple is selling our data, though it would certainly prove that they are collecting it. And even if they showed people their algorithms for differential privacy, you could always make the argument that they were hiding something. Essentially it seems that there is no condition that would satisfy the criteria. It's obvious that we have to trust apple's word to some degree and that the relationship is asymmetrical. I've been convinced by the arguments about business model / risk outlined above. What hasn't convinced you?
e1ven 9y ago
Apple has it's privacy details laid out, in both plain English and fairly in-depth, at https://www.apple.com/privacy/ https://www.apple.com/privacy/ They make it very clear that they are protecting data, to a far greater degree than Google offers if you use their ecosystem. I don't think it's at all fair to resort to an "Everyone is the same" argument here.

labster 9y ago

This sounds an awful lot like FUD. Care to back up any of those generalizations with evidence?

dawnbreez 9y ago
The trouble is that the evidence is basically "Apple says they don't". Because the source code is not open, we can't know for sure one way or the other.
- kgarten 9y ago
  No the source code won't help you. If you want to hide sth. you can hide it ;) http://wiki.c2.com/?TheKenThompsonHack http://wiki.c2.com/?TheKenThompsonHack
  - labster 9y ago
    Oh come on. For that to work Apple would have to become a major backer of a compiler, and even then provide major libraries that link to everything. And possibly even invent its own variant of C. What are the chances of that? Oh. Well. I'll just be hiding in this corner, then.
Johnny555 9y ago
It's right there in their privacy policy, they already say that they can share your location and other "non-personal information" for any purpose. And it's a very small step from "occupation, language, zip code, area code, unique device identifier, referrer URL, location" for a vendor to identify you. If they weren't selling location information, then they could just say it: https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/en-ww/ https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/en-ww/ Collection and Use of Non-Personal Information We also collect data in a form that does not, on its own, permit direct association with any specific individual. We may collect, use, transfer, and disclose non-personal information for any purpose. The following are some examples of non-personal information that we collect and how we may use it: We may collect information such as occupation, language, zip code, area code, unique device identifier, referrer URL, location, and the time zone where an Apple product is used so that we can better understand customer behavior and improve our products, services, and advertising.

lotso 9y ago

> Also, I'm fairly sure that Apple also sells data. Can you point to a source that shows this? This sounds like a lie to me.

dawnbreez 9y ago
As mentioned in the reply to the sibling comment, we can't know for sure unless we have source code.
- Larrikin 9y ago
  So instead we should wildly speculate with no evidence? I personally prefer my android phone and the only true advantage for iOS I see is that Apple actively fights for privacy.
- tryingagainbro 9y ago
  >>we can't know for sure unless we have source code. Maybe they're even promoting drug use to kids under 5...I mean it's possible.
- enraged_camel 9y ago
  How would having the iOS source code show you that Apple is selling data?
  - literallycancer 9y ago
    If Apple claims to care about protecting privacy, the onus is on them to prove that they actually do, e.g. by publishing the source code to show everyone that it doesn't collect anything. Otherwise, the assumption is that they do.
    - spurcell93 9y ago
      While I appreciate the sentiment that we should be distrustful of every large company that has our data, including apple, I take issue with the assertion that unless that publish their source code, they are selling our data. Logically, apple has no reason to be selling our data in even close to the same way that google does. These arguments have been thoroughly outlined in the threads above. Furthermore, showing us the source code would not prove whether or not apple is selling our data, though it would certainly prove that they are collecting it. And even if they showed people their algorithms for differential privacy, you could always make the argument that they were hiding something. Essentially it seems that there is no condition that would satisfy the criteria. It's obvious that we have to trust apple's word to some degree and that the relationship is asymmetrical. I've been convinced by the arguments about business model / risk outlined above. What hasn't convinced you?

e1ven 9y ago

Apple has it's privacy details laid out, in both plain English and fairly in-depth, at https://www.apple.com/privacy/ https://www.apple.com/privacy/ They make it very clear that they are protecting data, to a far greater degree than Google offers if you use their ecosystem. I don't think it's at all fair to resort to an "Everyone is the same" argument here.