5 ms·

I don't think roofers are good example, not sure where you live, but last summer I got roofers scheduled in a week (Boston area). By locally known construction

I don't think roofers are good example, not sure where you live, but last summer I got roofers scheduled in a week (Boston area). By locally known construction company, I got estimate and contract by American owner/sales man - he probably does well, but the actual work was done by Brazilian crew, which I'm guessing was mostly illegal immigrants likely paid less than minimum wage. From my observations with neighbors and friends, all roof work done in the area is by Brazilian crews (I don't know why Brazilian specifically, but that how it is). Good luck competing wit them. Another anecdote example is small framing company owner (originally from Russia), mostly hires illegal Russian immigrants who work for near minimum wage. The owner may do well, but not the rest of the crew.

forapurpose 9y ago
> the actual work was done by Brazilian crew, which I'm guessing was mostly illegal immigrants likely paid less than minimum wage There are millions of immigrants in the U.S. who are legal; why would you think these people are not? I guess my point is, it's not a good assumption and has bad consequences: People having their legality questioned based on no evidence.
- avasylev 9y ago
  legality questioned? come on, of course it's not good to assume anything about people, lots of things happen in life. That doesn't mean I had to go ask each of them to show me their documents, so I can make a guess on internet forum.
  - forapurpose 9y ago
    > I can make a guess on internet forum On one hand, I understand that people don't want to be challenged or to write dissertations for casual conversation. On the other, we know that misinformation spreading through 'internet forums' in the form of 'guesses' is a problem, that HN isn't a typical internet forum, and that 'guesses' are often challenged here.
curun1r 9y ago
My step dad was a roofer when I was growing up. He was the one that did the estimates and found the business and he had a crew of immigrants that did most of the work for him. They earned far above minimum wage. They made $15/hr, under the table, in the early 90s when minimum wage was under $5/hr. Even the grunt roofing work is semi-skilled and paying more allowed him to keep the same crew together over multiple years so he didn't have to constantly retrain. Even his supervisor role was backbreaking work that left him exhausted after 12-hour days. His crew would have found other minimum wage grunt work to do if the money wasn't good. Plus, the margins on jobs were so high that it didn't make sense to be chintzy (he'd net around $4k on a week-long job after the cost of labor and materials). But it was seasonal work so he'd only get 10-12 jobs in per year and spent the rest of the year being an artist. I can't say how many crews are run like his was, but I also don't think it's fair to assume that all those guys are making next to nothing. The roofing season is so short and the money good enough that I'd bet that having someone you trust to move fast while maintaining quality would be worth a significant amount over minimum wage. Having worked with him on my summer breaks in high school, it took me a full season to get to the point where I was even close to keeping up with his regulars. I'd also bet the money being pretty good, not bad, is why you see groups of the same ethnicity working together since they probably recruit and train each other whenever there's a vacancy.
- avasylev 9y ago
  From my anecdotal experience, a lot of recent immigrants (legal or illegal doesn't matter) don't know English and it takes them time (some times many years) before the can work in English speaking environment. Naturally such groups of same ethnicity are formed, and typically are the only work option for new immigrants (who don't speak English). This also means they are paid less, as have limited job options. I'm not sure if I understood correctly, that your dad's crew was mostly immigrants, why do you think it was like that? If pay was good and semi-skilled (easy to train), why mostly immigrants?
  - curun1r 9y ago
    He probably could have found Americans to do the work, but I think he preferred immigrants because they were more willing to get paid under the table. He wasn't trying to dodge taxes, he just hated complexity and filling out forms. He was an artist who learned to see roofs as art and fixed them as a concession to needing money that he never could earn from his painting and photography. I think he was paying enough to find Americans, but not enough to find Americans who would stay with him for years, especially since it was seasonal work and they'd need other work during the rest of the year. Continuity and quality were also really important to him and he wanted people he could trust.

forapurpose 9y ago

> the actual work was done by Brazilian crew, which I'm guessing was mostly illegal immigrants likely paid less than minimum wage There are millions of immigrants in the U.S. who are legal; why would you think these people are not? I guess my point is, it's not a good assumption and has bad consequences: People having their legality questioned based on no evidence.

avasylev 9y ago
legality questioned? come on, of course it's not good to assume anything about people, lots of things happen in life. That doesn't mean I had to go ask each of them to show me their documents, so I can make a guess on internet forum.
- forapurpose 9y ago
  > I can make a guess on internet forum On one hand, I understand that people don't want to be challenged or to write dissertations for casual conversation. On the other, we know that misinformation spreading through 'internet forums' in the form of 'guesses' is a problem, that HN isn't a typical internet forum, and that 'guesses' are often challenged here.

curun1r 9y ago

My step dad was a roofer when I was growing up. He was the one that did the estimates and found the business and he had a crew of immigrants that did most of the work for him. They earned far above minimum wage. They made $15/hr, under the table, in the early 90s when minimum wage was under $5/hr. Even the grunt roofing work is semi-skilled and paying more allowed him to keep the same crew together over multiple years so he didn't have to constantly retrain. Even his supervisor role was backbreaking work that left him exhausted after 12-hour days. His crew would have found other minimum wage grunt work to do if the money wasn't good. Plus, the margins on jobs were so high that it didn't make sense to be chintzy (he'd net around $4k on a week-long job after the cost of labor and materials). But it was seasonal work so he'd only get 10-12 jobs in per year and spent the rest of the year being an artist. I can't say how many crews are run like his was, but I also don't think it's fair to assume that all those guys are making next to nothing. The roofing season is so short and the money good enough that I'd bet that having someone you trust to move fast while maintaining quality would be worth a significant amount over minimum wage. Having worked with him on my summer breaks in high school, it took me a full season to get to the point where I was even close to keeping up with his regulars. I'd also bet the money being pretty good, not bad, is why you see groups of the same ethnicity working together since they probably recruit and train each other whenever there's a vacancy.

avasylev 9y ago
From my anecdotal experience, a lot of recent immigrants (legal or illegal doesn't matter) don't know English and it takes them time (some times many years) before the can work in English speaking environment. Naturally such groups of same ethnicity are formed, and typically are the only work option for new immigrants (who don't speak English). This also means they are paid less, as have limited job options. I'm not sure if I understood correctly, that your dad's crew was mostly immigrants, why do you think it was like that? If pay was good and semi-skilled (easy to train), why mostly immigrants?
- curun1r 9y ago
  He probably could have found Americans to do the work, but I think he preferred immigrants because they were more willing to get paid under the table. He wasn't trying to dodge taxes, he just hated complexity and filling out forms. He was an artist who learned to see roofs as art and fixed them as a concession to needing money that he never could earn from his painting and photography. I think he was paying enough to find Americans, but not enough to find Americans who would stay with him for years, especially since it was seasonal work and they'd need other work during the rest of the year. Continuity and quality were also really important to him and he wanted people he could trust.