8 ms·

Bitcoin Is Creeping into Real Estate Deals

115 points by uptown 9y ago

uptown 9y ago
Alternate Source: https://archive.fo/5ArL4 https://archive.fo/5ArL4
- kuschku 9y ago
  Thanks. I can’t circumvent the paywall either with Google, nor Facebook, nor the E-Mail URL trick. I seriously wish by now links to paywalled content that aren’t archived versions should be banned from HN, especially now that circumventing these paywalls is basically impossible.
  - uptown 9y ago
    You’re replying to a comment with a paywal circumvention link but saying it’s basically impossible?
    - kuschku 9y ago
      I'm replying to a comment after already 4 attempts at circumventing have failed The alternative is that people start commenting on an article without having read it, and that would truly turn HN into Reddit.
valsoltow 9y ago
A few other cryptos are as well http://vectorspace.ai/recommend/app/crypto_discover?query=real+estate http://vectorspace.ai/recommend/app/crypto_discover?query=re...
paulgb 9y ago
This article seems to conflate using the block chain to verify title transfers, with using Bitcoin to buy/rent property, as it discusses both without really drawing a distinction. Can anyone make sense of what's going on here, and in particular why a municipality would prefer a block chain to a public database of digitally signed records?
- cwkoss 9y ago
  It would allow two private parties to transfer title between themselves without permission or action by the municipality. Not sure why the municipality would want that. Also would create a slew of issues around what happens if you lose the private key to your house, or worse, it gets stolen.
  - Goronmon 9y ago
    Same things that happens with Bitcoin, you lose your house.
    - Xeoncross 9y ago
      Well, actually it just sits there forever and no one can use it. Think of this more like converting your home into a museum for future generations.
      - usrusr 9y ago
        Why? If the transactions logged on the blockchain contain annotations about your identity, you (as described by those annotations) would still own the house, only an impersonator matching those annotations as good as you would be able to challenge your ownership. On a blockchain without any fallbacks you would lose any ability to ever transfer ownership. As for future generations, will anyone could claim it but your heirs might have a better shot at it than a random impersonator.
    - danpat 9y ago
      That's apples and oranges. A house and land doesn't become inaccessible if a key is lost, and the gatekeeper of "ownership of land" isn't the mathematics of the blockchain, it's the government.
      - paulgb 9y ago
        Well sure, but that seems to undermine the necessity of the blockchain for this purpose right? If the ultimate arbiter is still the government, decentralizing the ledger is neat but it doesn't remove the requirement for trust in the government.
badloginagain 9y ago
In Canada, buying/selling Bitcoin is subject to capital gains in the same way buying/selling stocks are. I wonder if you have to pay capital gains if using Bitcoin directly as a currency- as in through the purchase of a house or other expensive asset.
- tryingagainbro 9y ago
  I think yes, might be wrong but it's logical (logic and taxes don't always mix, so I may be wrong). You bought Bitcoin at $1 and sell at $8000 to pay for a house, you need to declare income of $7999 for each Bitcoin at the end of the year or else...
  - badloginagain 9y ago
    It makes sense, I guess the question is if there's language in the tax code for alternative payment sources. It's not unreasonable that someone could trade their car, and 300 shares in Google; in exchange for something of equal value. If there is, it sucks because you're getting hit doubly for taxes on the item you're paying and the capital gains you'd be taking.
    - tryingagainbro 9y ago
      In USA even if you sold cocaine...or your mom, you need to declare it on income taxes. They might not catch selling cocaine but if they catch you with undeclared cash, they'll Al Capone you. I'm almost certain that all countries have a catch all phrase to include any gains /income.
      - charlesdm 9y ago
        Not all countries have capital gains tax, so no.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - 9y ago
nikolay 9y ago
Blockchain ≠ Bitcoin
rb808 9y ago
Great way for Chinese buyers to go straight from electricity bill to Canadian/Australian/Californian real estate without even moving any currency. Money laundering and capital control problems solved! (OK the article looks to be about blockchain for confirming transaction rather than paying - but the joke still holds)
- jenga22 9y ago
  I don't see this comment as helpful. Bitcoin, and other crypto currencies, is akin to the internet when it was first introduced. It has the potential to disrupt the value business which is controlled by governments at the moment. Worse, a lot our value system is controlled by corporations that have fees littered throughout every single transaction we do today. Crypto-Currencies have a chance to disrupt a system that is increasingly not good for the common person. Secondly, Chinese buyers area already visiting the US and buying property and they pay cold hard cash. So not seeing what your point is here.
  - solaarphunk 9y ago
    You can move the cash straight from Mainland, instead of having to get around the 50k/p.p. capital control. This is huge as there are many more people who have money inside of China than in HK bank accounts.
  - tabeth 9y ago
    What are a few things you can do with Bitcoin that you couldn't do without it?
    - itsamoreh 9y ago
      Well for one you can transfer money to anyone anywhere without any intermediates.
      - tabeth 9y ago
        Why would you want that? What happens if you have a fraudulent transaction? How is it reversed? What about coercion? Blackmail, etc. By the way, you can transfer cash without any intermediaries. You literally just hand it over. I think blockchain in general has value, however I'm skeptical of cryptocurrencies vs. a trusted intermediary and the current setup.
bernardlunn 9y ago
It is just money laundering & evading exchange controls. Would use pigeons if they were fast enough.
revmoo 9y ago
Don't post paywall content
riazrizvi 9y ago
Article headline implies Bitcoin can be used in real estate deals. Article itself describes how blockchain techniques may be used in real estate record keeping. This aligns with my understanding of how bubbles are promoted through confusion tactics, via financial press as complicit agents. Mental Note; don't touch cryptocurrencies with a barge pole.
- nikolay 9y ago
  Well, WSJ and Wall St are interesting in bubbles of all kinds, so, of course, just like ever before, they would do anything possible to separate stupid people from their money...
  - riazrizvi 9y ago
    Some markets are more false than others. With cryptocurrencies 1) you can’t measure intrinsic demand, so you don’t know if a price increase is being driven by sheep-like speculators or real buyers who want to hold the asset for its own sake. 2) you can’t validate counterparty identity so people can buy and sell with themselves, thereby creating a false sense of market demand. 3) because of a lack of market transparency you have no idea at all what you can sell bitcoin for in a certain size, similar to diamonds where people pay $1000 for a commodity that they wouldn’t be able to sell themselves for $100, so ‘investments’ in it are an instant money loss. It’s one of these markets where if you aren’t scamming someone yourself then you are the one being scammed. All that said, this bubble is still mid froth, and I expect my comment to get downvoted, by scammers and suckers. EDIT (from https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/21/technology/bitcoin-bitfinex-tether.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/21/technology/bitcoin-bitfin...): > Tether and Bitfinex have insisted that the two operations are separate. But leaked documents known as the Paradise Papers, which were made public this month, show that Appleby, an offshore law firm, helped Mr. Potter and Mr. Devasini, the Bitfinex operators, set up Tether in the British Virgin Islands in late 2014. > One persistent online critic, going by the screen name Bitfinex’ed, has written several very detailed essays on Medium arguing that Bitfinex appears to be creating Tether coins out of thin air and then using them to buy Bitcoin and push the price up. I rest my case.
test6554 9y ago
How will any kind of blockchain used for real-estate be de-centralized? My guess is that it will be centralized. No government would give up that much control over the property within its borders. Governments want authority to be the first to add property to the ledger to ensure it starts off in a valid state. Governments want to have the authority to seize property and enforce court decisions as well. People could get hacked and suddenly someone else owns their home, but with a centralized system, even if the government gets hacked and all property stolen, they simply fork off a previous block that was known to be valid and proceed as usual.
neurotech1 9y ago
Non-Paywall http://archive.is/5ArL4 http://archive.is/5ArL4

115 points by uptown 9y ago

uptown 9y ago

Alternate Source: https://archive.fo/5ArL4 https://archive.fo/5ArL4

kuschku 9y ago
Thanks. I can’t circumvent the paywall either with Google, nor Facebook, nor the E-Mail URL trick. I seriously wish by now links to paywalled content that aren’t archived versions should be banned from HN, especially now that circumventing these paywalls is basically impossible.
- uptown 9y ago
  You’re replying to a comment with a paywal circumvention link but saying it’s basically impossible?
  - kuschku 9y ago
    I'm replying to a comment after already 4 attempts at circumventing have failed The alternative is that people start commenting on an article without having read it, and that would truly turn HN into Reddit.

valsoltow 9y ago

A few other cryptos are as well http://vectorspace.ai/recommend/app/crypto_discover?query=real+estate http://vectorspace.ai/recommend/app/crypto_discover?query=re...

paulgb 9y ago

This article seems to conflate using the block chain to verify title transfers, with using Bitcoin to buy/rent property, as it discusses both without really drawing a distinction. Can anyone make sense of what's going on here, and in particular why a municipality would prefer a block chain to a public database of digitally signed records?

cwkoss 9y ago
It would allow two private parties to transfer title between themselves without permission or action by the municipality. Not sure why the municipality would want that. Also would create a slew of issues around what happens if you lose the private key to your house, or worse, it gets stolen.
- Goronmon 9y ago
  Same things that happens with Bitcoin, you lose your house.
  - Xeoncross 9y ago
    Well, actually it just sits there forever and no one can use it. Think of this more like converting your home into a museum for future generations.
    - usrusr 9y ago
      Why? If the transactions logged on the blockchain contain annotations about your identity, you (as described by those annotations) would still own the house, only an impersonator matching those annotations as good as you would be able to challenge your ownership. On a blockchain without any fallbacks you would lose any ability to ever transfer ownership. As for future generations, will anyone could claim it but your heirs might have a better shot at it than a random impersonator.
  - danpat 9y ago
    That's apples and oranges. A house and land doesn't become inaccessible if a key is lost, and the gatekeeper of "ownership of land" isn't the mathematics of the blockchain, it's the government.
    - paulgb 9y ago
      Well sure, but that seems to undermine the necessity of the blockchain for this purpose right? If the ultimate arbiter is still the government, decentralizing the ledger is neat but it doesn't remove the requirement for trust in the government.

badloginagain 9y ago

In Canada, buying/selling Bitcoin is subject to capital gains in the same way buying/selling stocks are. I wonder if you have to pay capital gains if using Bitcoin directly as a currency- as in through the purchase of a house or other expensive asset.

tryingagainbro 9y ago
I think yes, might be wrong but it's logical (logic and taxes don't always mix, so I may be wrong). You bought Bitcoin at $1 and sell at $8000 to pay for a house, you need to declare income of $7999 for each Bitcoin at the end of the year or else...
- badloginagain 9y ago
  It makes sense, I guess the question is if there's language in the tax code for alternative payment sources. It's not unreasonable that someone could trade their car, and 300 shares in Google; in exchange for something of equal value. If there is, it sucks because you're getting hit doubly for taxes on the item you're paying and the capital gains you'd be taking.
  - tryingagainbro 9y ago
    In USA even if you sold cocaine...or your mom, you need to declare it on income taxes. They might not catch selling cocaine but if they catch you with undeclared cash, they'll Al Capone you. I'm almost certain that all countries have a catch all phrase to include any gains /income.
    - charlesdm 9y ago
      Not all countries have capital gains tax, so no.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- 9y ago

nikolay 9y ago

Blockchain ≠ Bitcoin

rb808 9y ago

Great way for Chinese buyers to go straight from electricity bill to Canadian/Australian/Californian real estate without even moving any currency. Money laundering and capital control problems solved! (OK the article looks to be about blockchain for confirming transaction rather than paying - but the joke still holds)

jenga22 9y ago
I don't see this comment as helpful. Bitcoin, and other crypto currencies, is akin to the internet when it was first introduced. It has the potential to disrupt the value business which is controlled by governments at the moment. Worse, a lot our value system is controlled by corporations that have fees littered throughout every single transaction we do today. Crypto-Currencies have a chance to disrupt a system that is increasingly not good for the common person. Secondly, Chinese buyers area already visiting the US and buying property and they pay cold hard cash. So not seeing what your point is here.
- solaarphunk 9y ago
  You can move the cash straight from Mainland, instead of having to get around the 50k/p.p. capital control. This is huge as there are many more people who have money inside of China than in HK bank accounts.
- tabeth 9y ago
  What are a few things you can do with Bitcoin that you couldn't do without it?
  - itsamoreh 9y ago
    Well for one you can transfer money to anyone anywhere without any intermediates.
    - tabeth 9y ago
      Why would you want that? What happens if you have a fraudulent transaction? How is it reversed? What about coercion? Blackmail, etc. By the way, you can transfer cash without any intermediaries. You literally just hand it over. I think blockchain in general has value, however I'm skeptical of cryptocurrencies vs. a trusted intermediary and the current setup.

bernardlunn 9y ago

It is just money laundering & evading exchange controls. Would use pigeons if they were fast enough.

revmoo 9y ago

Don't post paywall content

riazrizvi 9y ago

Article headline implies Bitcoin can be used in real estate deals. Article itself describes how blockchain techniques may be used in real estate record keeping. This aligns with my understanding of how bubbles are promoted through confusion tactics, via financial press as complicit agents. Mental Note; don't touch cryptocurrencies with a barge pole.

nikolay 9y ago
Well, WSJ and Wall St are interesting in bubbles of all kinds, so, of course, just like ever before, they would do anything possible to separate stupid people from their money...
- riazrizvi 9y ago
  Some markets are more false than others. With cryptocurrencies 1) you can’t measure intrinsic demand, so you don’t know if a price increase is being driven by sheep-like speculators or real buyers who want to hold the asset for its own sake. 2) you can’t validate counterparty identity so people can buy and sell with themselves, thereby creating a false sense of market demand. 3) because of a lack of market transparency you have no idea at all what you can sell bitcoin for in a certain size, similar to diamonds where people pay $1000 for a commodity that they wouldn’t be able to sell themselves for $100, so ‘investments’ in it are an instant money loss. It’s one of these markets where if you aren’t scamming someone yourself then you are the one being scammed. All that said, this bubble is still mid froth, and I expect my comment to get downvoted, by scammers and suckers. EDIT (from https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/21/technology/bitcoin-bitfinex-tether.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/21/technology/bitcoin-bitfin...): > Tether and Bitfinex have insisted that the two operations are separate. But leaked documents known as the Paradise Papers, which were made public this month, show that Appleby, an offshore law firm, helped Mr. Potter and Mr. Devasini, the Bitfinex operators, set up Tether in the British Virgin Islands in late 2014. > One persistent online critic, going by the screen name Bitfinex’ed, has written several very detailed essays on Medium arguing that Bitfinex appears to be creating Tether coins out of thin air and then using them to buy Bitcoin and push the price up. I rest my case.

test6554 9y ago

How will any kind of blockchain used for real-estate be de-centralized? My guess is that it will be centralized. No government would give up that much control over the property within its borders. Governments want authority to be the first to add property to the ledger to ensure it starts off in a valid state. Governments want to have the authority to seize property and enforce court decisions as well. People could get hacked and suddenly someone else owns their home, but with a centralized system, even if the government gets hacked and all property stolen, they simply fork off a previous block that was known to be valid and proceed as usual.

neurotech1 9y ago

Non-Paywall http://archive.is/5ArL4 http://archive.is/5ArL4